Member Opinions:
By: Mike on 11/20/08
The only thing more outrageous than this letter is the decision by the OPP to print it. Look at just a few of the lies, half-truths, and innuendos in this teacher-bashing letter: "Some of the adopted or proposed resolution" - which ones were actually adopted? Anybody can propose anything, of course, but that doesn't make any of these items an agenda for "mind corruption of our kids" by teachers, individually or collectively. Exactly what parts of the U.S. Constitution would be violated by global warming legislation? globalization? more international treaties? What an absurd allegation! "Diversity is the code word for pro-homosexual indoctrination in the classroom." THAT was a resolution proposed or adopted at the NEA Convention? I don't believe it, and citing an absurdly bigoted source like the "Schlafly Report" does not make these ridiculous allegations true. When will the OPP learn that the right to express an opinion does not include anyone's right to publicize lies? This letter is nothing more than one more outpouring of this letter writer's teacher-bashing and public school-bashing, and those of us who have respect for teachers and what they have done for our children are sick of it and the hatred he spews at them and all the others he defames in these letters!
By: Cindy on 11/20/08
Early Childhood Education = Babysitting For Pre-Schoolers? Are you serious? This guy obviously has NO IDEA what goes on in a classroom. Education is different then it used to be and research has shown the enormous value of Early Childhood Education. To say that is is merely a ploy to gain more "dues paying members" is ludicrous...just like all the other claims in this letter.
By: je_ne_sais_pas on 11/20/08
I am so sick of seeing the Nesbits in this pile of a paper. They are both crazy and I get so sick of them damning us all to hell. They are the hypocrits! Does the bible not say to love thy neighbor, not love your white middle aged neighbor and throw stones at eveyone else (e.g. blacks, muslims, homosexuals, etc.)? The OPP is an abomination to journalism for even printing this sort of garbage. Bev and Bob, honestly, I don't even read your letters because they are so ridiculous. It makes me a little sick people like you exist. How about rather than pushing your hypocrisy on me and the rest of Owatonna via the news paper, you chat about it with the other blue hairs who couldn't care either over morning coffee.
By: Kspecial on 11/21/08
Bob, you're old and ignorant
By: Evansmom on 11/21/08
I did not get a "corrupted mind" from my kindergarden teacher, but I sure did get one from this wonderful (wink, wink,) letter. WHAT A TOOL...Would it not be funny if on the day he dies he gets to watch us enter heaven and not him. And God would say "Hey, I've been reading the paper all these years...and I all I have to say is my son was a teacher. Oh, and I totally agree with Jenesaispas.
By: oatmeal on 11/21/08
Bob, How is opposing the designation of Engilsh as our official language "ungodly?" Maybe we all should start speaking Aramaic, like Jesus. Of course that would require more teachers. OPP it is time to move on. There are many intelligent and rational people in this community. Maybe you should start printing letters from them. And let's not hide behind freedom of speach. You are a private newspaper. You can delcine to pubilsh these letters if you choose - but I guess controversy sells papers - always has.
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
I find it very interesting that Jeffrey Jackson, the editor-in-chief of the OPP has made it a point to say that he avoids taking sides when it comes to political or religious views. Yet his paper is more than willing to print this kind of stuff all the time. PLEASE, OPP, save the money you spend on ink yearly on the Nesbits and pay your reporters to go get some real information on the stories they do. Everyone would benefit!!!
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/21/08
Seriously everyone, don't read their garbage. The above letter was written with so much hate, lies and ignorance. I do have to thank Bob Nesbit for one thing. After reading this I laughed, it's so inaccurate it's funny. As far as the OPP, Mr. and Mrs. Nesbit are practicing free speech, we also are free to not read it. However, if you are asking the OPP to do something responsible, don't hold your breath, it just won't happen. Have a great weekend everyone!
By: Rosie on 11/21/08
I seriously think that OPP loves loves loves it when they (the nesbits) write their little letters!! That is the way OPP knows people are reading the paper, because of all the responses they get. Two points I will make.. 1. We don't HAVE to read it and or respond at all. I know..it is soooo tempting to continually point out the ignorance of these letters but it is always to no avail so don't continue to do so!! 2. Having a section of "readers write" in the OPP opens them up to publishing all letters that "follow the guidelines". I have read that some people say that they have written letters and they have not been published..those people should definitely go to OPP and ask why, but over all the paper (if rules are followed) can not discriminate. Isn't that what we yell.."No Discrimination"!! We can not make the Nesbits more loving, more tolerant, more respectful anymore than they can make us more bitter, more hateful or more close minded!! So...you all have wonderful minds and the God given ability to make great choices. Make them! Be thankful for that and..... TGIF and everyone have a wonderful and joyous week-end!!
By: Thinking_Outloud on 11/21/08
This has been yet another religious rant full of half-truths, bigotry and outright lies from the Nesbits...brought to you by the Owatonna People's Press. Or, shall I say, they are coming to be known as: "The Owatonna Daily Wipe...Yesterday's news today, and full of small-town-hick racist beliefs." (buy your copy today so you TOO can support these beliefs) If you disagree with the OPP supporting the Nesbits backhanded bigotry, please call or email Jeffrey Jackson. He can be reached at 444-2371 or jjackson@owatonna.com. And as OwatonnaMom said: Have a great weekend everyone!
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
I completely agree OwatonnaMom. I didn't attack what the Nesbits wrote. It's their right to voice whatever opinion they want. I sometimes feel like the OPP hides behind the "don't kill the messenger" mentality. This kind of tripe is published all the time but important stories that need better coverage get glossed over. It’s just lazy journalism.
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Why is it that the NEA and ED are not receiving news coverage about their annual meetings?
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
Onevoice. See the afore mentioned "lazy journalism"
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Good point. Maybe they should start/restart the practice of reporting on it.
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
I guess one sided editorials and color pieces on Indian food or automated voice mail is more important than information about the NEA. That does fall into the general by-line the OPP usually takes about its readers. I’m sure we could try to contact the heads of the OPP about what they print, but do you really think they (the editors of the OPP) actually read their own paper? Please!
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Maybe it's freedom of speech they support. But, yes, I would like to look into why there hasn't been coverage on NEA/ED annual meetings, it should be public. Would sure dispel/enlighten with information.
By: Mike on 11/21/08
Just a reminder: The Bill of Rights does not endorse and permit hate speech, which is all this letter exemplifies. These are not opinions - they are plainly and simply spewings of hatred. I am left to assume that the OPP must agree with the letter, or at least that it falls within the parameters of the reasonable exercise of Free Speech and Press. It must be assumed from the sheer volume of letters of this sort printed that the OPP believes this is an opinion that should be heard and considered. That makes the OPP even more culpable than the letter writer because they are far less pathetic.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid" ~Søren Kierkegaard~ While freedom of speech wouldn't even merit a footnote in the reasoning for the OPP printing what it prints, it has been mentioned here and apparently that's all it takes to bring the humorous quote to mind...thought I'd pass on some of my levity! I suppose it would be funnier if it weren't so very true... =) Happy Friday, all! ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
For anybody who is interested/concerned, here is a site; www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/080706.resolutionshlml Nesbit was correct in "opposes voucher plans"-A-25 on above site correct in fullyfunded early ed through public schools-B-1 on above site B50&51 covers health welfare-plans are in place. And one that concerns me is B-23 "supports access for undocumented students..." to include monetary aid... Or you can search, '08-'09 NEA Resolutions. It is quite eyeopening and enlightening, but also lengthly. We need to stay informed..."for the children"
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
I did a little digging and found one other little quote on the subject...from our 28th president, Woodrow Wilson: "I have always been among those who believed that the freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking." lol I'm done now...still laughing, but done. Enjoy your Friday, all! =) ~OD~
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
Onevoice. The OPP should hire you. Thank you for reporting fact and not opinion. Maybe that’s OPP’s master plan. They miss-report or opinionate everything they print and the concerned people of Owatonna get the actual news by themselves and place it the comment sections of the paper. Better yet, YOU should be the editor. :-)
By: jollyolesatan on 11/21/08
I was feeling bloated on the longstanding litany of linguistic linguini cooked up by Bob and Bev and had a vision. Upon me came a vision of the dictionary. The pages flew open by themselves as if by the breath of GOD! Then, they stopped as if by a miracle on the page containing the word "psychosis." And I read: A serious mental illness marked by loss of or greatly lessened ability to test whether what one is thinking and feeling about the real world is really true. And I saw that it was good.
By: coloradokid88 on 11/21/08
I did not find hate in Nesbits article but did find hate in a few responses. What if Bob is right and they are sharing these facts as a concern and another point of view that is not being told in our mainstream media. I am concerned if it is true that they do not support that English should be the designated language and some of their other claims. I encourage all to check out the opinions and see what is fact before condemming Bob here. His letter was an opinion he feels is fact presented in a factual matter-not with hatred or bigotry. JMHO
By: JoJo on 11/21/08
The problem here is the word "ungodly." Bob feels that the teacher union's platforms are ungodly. I for one, am glad that we have these "ungodly liberal agendas" in place. If not, our kids would be taught only from the good book of Nesbit. Thanks to Bob for reminding me of the teacher's union agenda and strengthening my belief in the public school system.
By: Hybrid on 11/21/08
Don't blame the gun that fires these bullets. It's the peron who fires them that is to blame. Weather you agree or disagree with the article, the OPP is to blame for putting out there.
By: NoteTaker on 11/21/08
First, "[t]eacher-bashing letter..." Mike? I don't find anything in Mr. Nesbit's letter that bashes teachers. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to back up your statement with an example as Mr. Nesbit wrote about the NEA, not individual teachers. Second, Mr. Nesbit's statement about "some of the adopted or proposed resolutions" is simply making facts known. (Yes, those are facts, Mike.) Since you appear to be so web-savvy, perhaps you'd actually take time to look up and verify what Mr. Nesbit wrote and then share with us the details about which "proposed resolutions" were actually adopted. Are you interested in the truth or simply taking on your own form of "bashing"? Besides, what was proposed speaks volumes about the NEA, I think. It seems to me that all Mr. Nesbit's statement does is simply articulate facts about their 2008 convention. (There's the "f" word again, Mike.) Honestly, Mike...I find your writings here are, for the most part, to be depressing to me (and you appear to me to be depressed) and filled with your own version of hatred and bashing. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
JoJo - I totally agree - I agree with every resolution of the NEA!!!
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
I see no blame here. This is an arena for speech. Within that speech you may get someones' personal opinion, and that's a freedom in our country. I Thank Bob Nesbit for putting some information out there and giving me an insight to explore further.I don't think I would have looked further except some of his information got me thinking. I think we should be concerned about how our schools run, financially and socially-yes socially. As we have been told, schools a foundation and an important part of our communitiies and can shape/influence society, they also use a large part of our tax dollars. On that note did you know alot of the extras for teachers and such,like continued ed courses/training, supplies etc, are tax deductible-our dollars too. And on the social aspect has anyone here felt they were treated unfairly in school or someone else was prefered over others,by school teachers or staff, it's a social atmosphere..Gets you thinking about some behaviors,or perceptions from children, children are VERY astute. I would encourage everyone to be aware of the "policies" they want/have in place, as noted by their own annual meetings and HOW they actually carry them out. It depends on each individual member in the school system. It's HOW you carry out the policy ; attitude, body language, tone inflection, intent, personal agenda or beliefs it all comes into play in the classrooms. Teachers have a HUGE influence on children-and they are in school how much of their lifetime? HMM
By: Crocodile on 11/21/08
Hold on one second JoJo- Nesbit never says "ungodly" in his letter, it is the OPP title only.
By: Common-Joe on 11/21/08
Croc-- read Nesbit's first paragraph carefully.
By: MN-Sunshine on 11/21/08
It's always nice to come four months after the fact and say there was no coverage of the July convention. I don't remember what was in the news four months ago. Probably a lot of political stuff. But I guess we're all supposed to take your word for it that there was no reporting about this convention. My guess it that the news outlets saw it for the non-issue it truly was and put the reporting on page 10.
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
What is so odd is that what Bob refers to as "ungodly liberal agendas" seem to me to be about respect agendas!! The NEA Teachers Union strongly opposes designating English as our official language. I would strongly agree!! We are a pluralistic country. I remember one politician saying, "if English was good enough for our Lord Jesus, it's good enough for me." That is so uneducated. If anything we as Americans need to learn more languages! Opposition of vouchers, tuition tax credits, parental option plans, home-schooling, and public support of any kind to non-public schools is good. Public schools are for everyone - private schools are not for everyone. The NEA strongly endorses early childhood education. Bob - "baby-sitting for pre-schoolers" - that is so uneducated! Diversity is what makes our country great!! School clinics save lives! The support of government-run health care, gun control, global warming legislation, globalism, liberal politicians and ratification of more international treaties are excellent!!! Thank you for letting us know of what the NEA stands for - They are more Wonderful than I thought!!!
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Well hopfully, It will come up after this years annual meeting which is mid-July, so look for it just before the fair.
By: NoteTaker on 11/21/08
Wow.... Well, in the words of Wayne Dyer, "The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about."
By: EAG on 11/21/08
Note the special preface to his fourth "point". Made me think of this site which is fake but has good points. http://www.godhateseveryoneexceptforus.com/purpose.html and this madness here which is real and ridiculous. http://www.godhatesfags.com/
By: NoteTaker on 11/21/08
"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left." -- Margaret Thatcher. Here, here!
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Malexm, the NEA does not oppose English as our official language! Please remain factual. What they are trying to do is incorporate alternative languages, to help ( teach ) those who DON'T know English have sufficient time to learn it to be able to be educated,in ENGLISH-Probably ties into undocumented students getting educated on our tax dollars, which raise our taxes. That's where an uproar should be.
By: slundber on 11/21/08
Hey, Bob, how did those Congressional Party candidates do this past election? Same as other years, huh?
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
onevoice - I was going with what Bob wrote - I probably should have checked more closely, but though I totally disagree with what Bob wrote, I did not think he would make things up. I should have known better. I'm sorry; however, I would love it if the NEA opposed English being our official language. I also favor educating undocumented children with our tax dollars. I believe that we are a world of humans, and I am more than willing to pay taxes to educate people who are here - documented or not. I know that my position is an unpopular one, but I have worked with undocumented children - I would never want to deny any child an education. Like most people in the US, undocumented children and their parents what a better life. If I can help make that happen, I am glad to do so.
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Malexm, Bob did not "make it up". What it says is, short order, it opposes that English is the only language, because of immigrants or undocumented students not knowing the English language-there needs to be a way to "catch them up". I agree some accommodations need to be made for those who are here legally. I am totally opposed to educating, with my tax dollars, illegals-once they go through the proper chanels it's a different story. We live in America and anyone can come here legally and receive it's benefits. Maybe that's a portion of why we don't have enough to fund programs for AMERICANS. Maybe you have a personal agenda, like job security.
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
onevoice - why would you saying something about my position on undocumented children in schools being a personal agenda? I would never support a cause for a "personal agenda." It feels like you are saying that my position is so invalid that the only reason anyone would feel the way is a selfish reason. I have worked with children in the past who are undocumented, and that has influenced my opinion - as all life experiences do. I no longer get paid to work with children who are undocumented - I volunteer. I personally don't care if someone is American or not. I feel we are a world community. As I said, I know my position is not popular and I am willing to hear what others have to say who disagree with me; however, please refrain from inferring that my opinion is motivated by selfishness.
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
Which means they have to hire more specialized teachers and fund salaries, healthcare,benefits etc. They need to have student numbers/bodies attending, to get more of our tax dollars. That's another reason they oppose vouchers, home schooling,etc., it too takes dollars from them. You ever wonder how/why these other alternative schooling options are out there-maybe the public schools need to look at that.
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
Onevoice - who is they? Public schools have problems - no question there.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
A documentation of the facts referred to by Phyllis Schlafly is contained in 102 pages. If you haven't read it and don't need a nap, I can't recommend it as reading material...however, I do find it odd that out of 102 pages which include more than 250 proposals, only 6 bullet points made it into Bob's letter (most of which is directly quoted from Phyllis’ rants…and yes, hers do qualify quite easily as rants). I find it more disconcerting that on the basis of that disagreement with less than 3% of the proposals, it was suggested that the NEA's "ungodly liberal agendas" had sent them underground. Thanks Phyllis. I suppose that there would be several dozen plausible explanations for clandestine meetings of the ominous NEA, were it actually true that meetings occur under such conditions. (How would you hide an assembly of some 9,000 people from all the media? The celebrities whining about media coverage and any politician with an interest in extramarital relations might benefit from knowing how to accomplish such a feat. lol) Seriously though, I do appreciate being offered a reason to do a little research. I also have great respect of people's right to disagree…(admittedly a self-serving angle for me since common ground isn’t something I find all that common...lol.) What really does chaff the seam of my moon, however, are zealous extremists using generalizations to incite then exploit emotions in an attempt to mislead those who need to be lead. In the interest of clarity let me specify that here I am referring to Phyllis, not the Nesbits. Not one of the 6 points made actually represent the whole truth...they do, however, accurately parrot Phyllis' view of the truth. A sheep can be scolded for following the wrong shepherd but a shepherd should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Just my two cents...lol =) ~OD~
By: something on 11/21/08
What would we do without you OD? A lot of the posts I skip...but I always read yours. I appreciate your knowledge! :)
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
=) just spreading the joy around...is that socialist of me? lmao Happy happy friday! ~OD~
By: Gordan on 11/21/08
OD - spreading anything around is being a socialist - at least that is what I learned from the last election:-)))
By: AIRmom on 11/21/08
I agree that Mr. Nesbit has the right to voice his opinion, just like I have mine. I guess what makes me sad is that as someone who would self-label as a Christian, I do not se Mr. Nesbit's opinions reflecting the humility, mercy and compassion that my Jesus lived. It seems to me that Jesus was quite liberal as a teacher. He taught the uneducated ones who were never meant to be taught (fishermen, tax collectors, etc.). He taught women- even non-Jewish women. He taught prostitutes. He taught the untouchabe sinners (ate with them!) He even taught in more than one language. If I am not mistaken, Jesus never asked for a dime- his teaching is and was free to anyone who asks for it. Wouldn't that make it "public education?" Instead of complaining to a public opinion forum, Mr. Nesbit, why don't you go out and DO SOMETHING for change. Be a radical and actually work toward something better. More people woud take your words seriously if you weren't just a sounding gong, but a man of loving action.
By: one_voice on 11/21/08
When I read this article in the paper at work I couldnt wait to see how many posts this was going to generate on-line and I was NOT disappointed! lol!! I would like to say a cheery "Hello" to onevoice. (and I thought I was being so clever with such a good name..hehe) Does that make me second banana?? lol! Have a great weekend everyone. :)
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
lol malexm...
By: rmsmkm on 11/21/08
Very well put AIRmom.
By: onevoice on 11/21/08
May I suggest you go to the '08 NEA Annual Meetings report. The facts are there, anyone can say anything, here in this forum, but if you REALLY want to know, go to; NEA Annual Meetings report. Bob Nesbit was pretty acurate-or is reading that( Nea annual metings report) going to keep you up, maybe it's too much and it's just easier to banter back and forth. The Phyllis Schlafy Report covers a range of topics. The NEA report "clarifies" the education policies.
By: lutefisk on 11/21/08
Ironically, this is American Education Week. OPP prints this letter, but ignores a national week that celebrates those who work in public and private schools to educate our children for the 21st century. That's not just tacky, but probably really irritating to our hardworking and exceptional educators in District #761. It is almost (I said almost) laughable.
By: RealityCheck on 11/21/08
The only thing Bob Nesbit was accurate with in his letter was his spelling and maybe some of his grammar. I find it mildly alarming that anyone would take issue with the fact that the NEA is trying to do a good job of a. including every person who wants to be educated, whether they speak English or not, and b. taking on early childhood education, since only about 11% of homes have a stay at home parent in them these days. Early Childhood programs cost less than daycare, and it familiarizes the kids with the school environment. Oh and by the way, they actually LEARN while there. Nice huh? I also need to clear a few other things up for good ol' Bob, Bev, and their psycho followers: 1. The mental and physical health of school children has not been taken over by schools. Quite the contrary. It has been left for the schools to deal with, by parents who either have not the time, or the means, or both. 2. Diversity is code for: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door." Our NATION used to STAND for DIVERSITY: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, nation of immigrants...SOUND FAMILIAR????? Have a happy day.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/21/08
Having read various reports(including but not limited to the articles you suggested, onevoice) prior to my original posts, I still confidently assert that any suggestion that accuracy is represented in the letter above (or in Phyllis' report that Mr. Nesbit is parroting) is tantamount to stating that a chicken feather is a chicken, or a doorway is a house, or one brick is a wall, or that "But you told me I" is a sentence. lol Amused... =) ~OD~
By: EDDY on 11/21/08
Thank God[or Al Gore] for the internet. I've move to Texas where we have many comedians, but none like Bob & Bev.
By: Mike on 11/22/08
Crocodile. . .Read the letter again. Mr. Nesbit uses the word "ungodly" in the second sentence. NoteTaker. . .stop splitting semantic hairs and your smug armchair psychoanalysis. Disagreeing with the tripe spewed in this letter does not make one depressed, clinically or otherwise. The NEA does not teach kids. . .individual teachers do that, and taxpayers don't pay NEA expenses. . . teachers do that. . .so it is reasonable to conclude that it is individual teachers Mr. Nesbit is bashing (broadly and without substantiation) when he asserts that, "Our tax dollars are paying for this mind corruption of our kids." I've looked at the NEA website carefylly, and Mr. Nesbit's letter clearly misrepresents the meeting and its decisions. You seem to believe that any words uttered by the Prophet Bob are "fact" and that those who question his utterances just don't know "the facts." I beg to differ.
By: onevoice on 11/22/08
It appears that thought has gone into each post. Seems like the understandings of either report or personal opinion has been interpreted/knowledge gained by each of us individually, by experiences. Do you think we could agree/understand that it truely is based on each individual in the school systems interpretation of the policies and HOW they get carried out that is IMPORTANT. I believe that is the point, we need to know these things. Schools can have a large inpact on our society, children especially.
By: owatonna_guy on 11/22/08
This is just some bitter old hateful couple that wants to nothing but see their name in print so they can cut the letters out and show them to their grandchildren. I just hope that their offspring are not as bitter and as hateful. I can't believe that the paper would print as many of their letters as they do. Aren't there other issues and things to report about?
By: coloradokid88 on 11/22/08
Owatonna_guy-how do you know their intent? I suspect they care deeply for our children, their education & our country-I know them personally. Their views & writings are not appreciated by all. I firmly believe their motives are pure and caring.
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/22/08
coloradokid, I'm sure their care does run deep, however, their views are not appreciated by all because of things like: "Diversity is the code word for pro-homosexual indoctrination in the classroom" Sounds pretty hateful to me.
By: coloradokid88 on 11/22/08
OwatonnaMom-and there isn't hatred oozing out of any of these comments towards the Nesbits? Do you want your kids being taught that homosexuality is normal behavior? Is the sexual activity of homosexuals "normal"...it's normal for males to have anal intercourse with each other? I don't care if there are homosexuals but I do not want it being taught as if it is "normal" because I do not believe it is. And, I do not want adultery taught as normal behavior because it is not-btw-practicing homosexuality is adultery between same sexes, because they are not married. And, adultery is a sin (according to the Bible as well as other religous books) but so is stealing, speeding, lying, murder, cheating-according to God a sin is a sin-there is not one that is greater than the other-just the consequences, man seems to think that homosexual activity is one of the worst sins and to me it is just another sin or wrong behavior.. All I want taught is solid morality and right from wrong and fair consequences for the wrong ding. And, this is what I believe the Nesbits want-they want a return to the teachings in schools from the olden days.
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/22/08
No coloradokid, what I was saying that that is NOT the definition for homosexuality. Diversity is the culture of more then just white, it is acceptance of color, religion, sexual orientation. You are not going to ever "return" to the olden days, because it is 2008. Love thy neighbor. I suppose my family and myself come from a different environment, and will soon return to that (thank goodness). Where diversity is embraced and love for all is taught. I do not come from a society of condemnation. (Which at times is how I interpret the Nesbit's postings, but it is all in the eye of the reader right?) I teach my children morality and right from wrong. I also teach equality, diversification and acceptance. I don't teach them that homosexuality is anything but a difference of preference....PERIOD. I have so far raised God fearing, responsible, accepting, respectful and loving young people and that I am very proud of. Coloradokid? solid morality is open for interpretation.
By: MN-Sunshine on 11/22/08
Should the schools be teaching that it is morally wrong for whites and blacks to inter-marry? After all, there are those who believed that at one time. At one time, it was even illegal in certain states for whites to marry blacks.
By: Mike on 11/22/08
Perhaps all is could be resolved by the Nesbits' writing a letter in which they compliment someone - anyone - without backhandedly, if not forthrightly, condemning someone. I have never - literally - read anything written by them that is not negative about anyone but themselves. The subjects of their letters change, but the finger-pointing and cries of "shame on you" never seem to. Is EVERYTHING and EVERYONE about whom they could write evil? If they are loving, caring, and concerned people, and they may well be, it would be helpful that they show us all that side of their attitudes.
By: coloradokid88 on 11/22/08
Owatonnamom-I couldn't agree with you more-I am all for diversity & "love your neighbor". I do not always see that from posters who have opposing views. Love your neighbor is a 2 way street. I think we would agree more in terms of "solid" morality" than disagree. I agree the Nesbits at times come across condemning, but so have some people who oppose them. Some have not been very loving. I try to be tolarant towards different races, sex, religions...I wish everyone would do the same. It is ok to disagree though!
By: Gordan on 11/22/08
OwatonnaMom and Mike - excellent!!! I find it to be abhorrent that anyone would use the Bible or any other holy book to discriminate against anyone. People have used the Bible throughout history to discriminate against people of color, women, children, people with disabilities, Jewish people… The KKK uses the Bible to "justify" their haye. Fed Phelps and his followers use the Bible to "justify" their hate. What the Nesbits write is not pure and caring – their views are condemning, mean, and filled with judgment and hate. If they are "pure and caring," they are not showing it in their writing.
By: coloradokid88 on 11/22/08
Malexm-you are right-those people who have used the Bible for hate messages have given others a bad name. However, we need something to define right from wrong--a standard, otherwise people will do what is right in their own eyes regardless of others rights and we will have chaos. As I said earlier-the Nesbits have written articles that are condemning--but the opposing posts haven't been exactly loving either...condemning at times as well. Pot calling the kettle black in my opinion.
By: jessnichole on 11/23/08
I love when there are Nesbit letters in the paper. It really brightens my day!! =) I really do get giddy though. Don't think I'm being entirely sarcastic.
By: Gordan on 11/23/08
coloradokid88 - the standard is that we need is to respect and love one another. The only thing that is intolerable is intolerance. The Nesbits are intolerant, and that is not tolerable. Calling people "ungodly" is mean, and dangerous.
By: coloradokid88 on 11/23/08
I had another response but will forego it-have a GREAT Sunday all-Go Vikings!!
By: donghua on 11/23/08
If we really want to get back to "genuine" Christianity, then let's make Latin the official language, and all school prayers be only those allowed by the Holy Father in Rome, rather than heretics like the Nesbitts, who should be purified by burning them at the stake for their false teaching. (Oh, I hope you all recognize irony & sarcasm.)
By: RealityCheck on 11/23/08
YES donghua! Ha! Let us DO go back to the "olden days" the WAAAAY OLDen Days... hee hee.
By: onevoice on 11/23/08
You know, think about if the other definition of "ungodly" were taken in account here, then it would mean,"outrageous". Now look back through the posts and see where people went.
By: BigBen7 on 11/23/08
If you are going to use Jesus and the Bible to support your argument, you should know what Jesus and the Bible actually say on a subject. The Bible very clearly teaches that marriage is designed for 1 man and 1 woman. It also very clearly states that homosexuality is in God's word an "abomination." Would Jesus have taught all--yes! Would He have also told any who were involved in sin that they should repent and fully follow His teachings? Very much so. Please don't quote the Bible and use Jesus as part of your argument unless you actually know what the Bible says, and not just the parts you like. Jesus would have loved everyone who has posted about this letter, but at the same time, He would have told you that you were condemned to eternal separation from God unless you repented of your sins and followed Him.
By: Rosie on 11/24/08
SIGH
By: EAG on 11/24/08
BigBen7, it also says... Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (King James Version) 18. If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19. Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20. And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. I get that its Old Testament and therefore we don't have to follow it, but i don't get how we know what parts of the Old Testament to ignore and what parts to follow.
By: Gordan on 11/24/08
BigBen7 - I am so glad that I am not a fundamentalist! The part of the Bible that I always think about in life is that nothing can separate a person from God's love - nothing! That seems to be counter to what many people are posting. Bishop Spong (sp??)is a great writer about modern day life and the Bible. One of the things I got from Bishop Spong is that God is not an supernatural overseer who dispenses punishment on those who don't play the game correctly. God is in us, through us, and with us. He also talks a lot about the time in which the Bible was written, and how we need to look at the Bible in the context of time. For example - homosexuality was not even recognized as a sexual orientation until the 1800s. When the Bible writers talks about homosexuality, it is in the context of the time - not knowing about sexual orientation. At that time also, people thought that a baby was in the sperm of the man, and the women's roll was only as an incubator. We have learned a lot about the world since the Bible was written, and need to look at the Bible from that perspective. I have friends who tell me that I am not a "Christian" because I don't believe what they believe. The reality is that there is no one belief in the Christian community - as it true for any religion. There is no one true interpretation of the Bible. There are many Christians who support same sex marriage, abortion rights, comprehensive sexuality education... Fundamentalists are not right and everyone else is wrong. I belong to a Christian church that will no longer marry anyone legally until same sex marriage is legal. We look at one's sexuality as a gift rather than a potential "sin." We are every bit as much Christian as fundamentalist - perhaps even closer to what the Bible writers had in mind???
By: onevoice on 11/24/08
By who's definition would we impose a standard from? The point is, our teachers have the power to influence. How would you feel if your childs' 1st grade teachers'(or any elementary teachers') same sex partner came to the school, or anywhere in public, and the children saw them give each other a kiss(on the mouth,hopfully not more than that)? The teacher is then exhibiting behavior which children are going to be "forced" to accept because they like their teacher. This puts an additional burden on the children before they are ready for it. We need to be aware of HOW it is taught, we have all kinds of examples that talk about influence and how it effects us, this is another. Basic Health in school, which covers puberty, with parental consent is o.k., but to explain to children about choices in partners, I think not, it's private-or should be. Outside of school influences can be monitored and explained by parents, HOW they choose, based on their family guidelines, There are counselors and privacy arenas for others. Sex education is more than the act, how are they going to cover that? We teach our children NOT TO: lie, steal, cheat, hurt others physically or with their words, to be respectful, to listen to their elders, to respect property of others,etc. We do this because when they get older there are laws on the books that will impose punishment for such crimes. We teach them who Not to hang around with, because of above mentioned influences. So based on some of the reasoning here, if the child has been given another influence and its deemed "normal" to them, then it's O.K. So they "learn" how to go about such behaviors. Schools need to stay out of some areas-BECAUSE each person can have a HUGE influence and our children are captive audiences for 7 hours.
By: NoteTaker on 11/24/08
Mike wrote: "Perhaps all is could be resolved by the Nesbits' writing a letter in which they compliment someone - anyone - without backhandedly, if not forthrightly, condemning someone. I have never - literally - read anything written by them that is not negative about anyone but themselves. The subjects of their letters change, but the finger-pointing and cries of "shame on you" never seem to. Is EVERYTHING and EVERYONE about whom they could write evil? If they are loving, caring, and concerned people, and they may well be, it would be helpful that they show us all that side of their attitudes." Even with the obvious differences we've had, Mike, I have to say I agree almost completely with this observation of yours. Thanks for sharing it.
By: onevoice on 11/24/08
Maybe, BECAUSE they ( the Nesbits') are loving, caring and concerned they inform you, so as you may also know what's going on and educate yourself. Could it be, some people are just negative and took what they had to say in their own content and reacted. Says alot if you look at it like that.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/24/08
People (myself included) have often suggested that we need to take scriptures in context. Assertions that the Nesbits letters are written with love, care and compassion for others are repudiated by the context created by looking at all the letters they have written. In the context of that whole, the disregard they inspire, of both their method and message, was designed and created by them. If the campaign they are conducting reflected anything Christ-like--if Christ had conducted his earthly self in such a manner--christianity would have died with him on Golgotha. In that particular context, the effort itself is indefensible. In short, no, I don't think it's "BECAUSE they (the Nesbits') are loving, caring and concerned"...and I further disagree that "some people are just negative...". Some people do pay attention, however, to the whole and in doing so cannot fail to see the contradictions that whole contains. =) ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/24/08
Really?
By: Gordan on 11/24/08
onevoice - we can have standards that are not religious based. It took me a long time to come to that realization. I have friends who are atheist - they are some of the most moral people I know. They don't lie or steal... because it can hurt others, not because God said not to. Also, it would be difficult for people to see Nesbits' writings as positive - "ungodly", "pro-homosexual indoctrination", "early childhood education as "babysitting"... It is difficult to imagine how anyone could put a positive spin on what they write.
By: whatthe on 11/24/08
I'm wondering when God is going to "talk" to me so I can write letters to the OPP. I'm sure that is the first place he'll have me start. Patiently waiting, whatthe
By: sully on 11/24/08
whatthe....sorry.....WHATTHE this is God. Please spread the message via the OPP to let people know of all the good the United Way does in this community as well as the world. P.S. also let the people know that throwing cigarette butts on the ground is littering and hurts the environment I created.
By: whatthe on 11/24/08
Sully...I mean God...I better check with the Nesbits first. I'm not sure what the United Way's "agenda" is. With the cigarette butts...I'm sure the NEA has been secretly teaching pre-schoolers in early ed classes that it is ok to throw them on the ground. May Sully bless you...I mean God bless you! Whatthe
By: coloradokid on 11/24/08
So, I hear people say we need a standard for all to live by. Where does this standard come from-who creates it? Owatonnamom-you are instilling standards into your children...great. What about those families where no standards are being taught. If kids are not getting standards for living at home, church, school, where will they get them? TV?, friends? Why are there so many juvenile killing, robberies, rapes, etc? Are crimes among juveniles/teens up from 10-20 years ago? What is the remedy to reduce these social crimes? More police? How many police, courts and jails do we need? What is the root cause of these crimes? Will this solve the root problem? Could the root cause be lack of social skills --knowing right from wrong, doing right things that do not harm your neighbor. The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. Is what we are doing working to reduce crimes or are crimes increasing? If you do not like the Bible standards-what will you use. If one does not live to a standard (moral compass as Stephen Covey says)what will a country/community get? More crime? My thoughts are this-schools shoud reinforce what the parents want for standards. For some, religion/church instills standards-which normally is not bad. (The 10 commandments are not bad rules to live by.) What do I want-to live in society that is safe for me, my family and neighbors. To have the freedom to go to the church of my choice and not be looked down upon for it. I do not want religion or politics rammed down my throat. I want the freedom to believe and articulate what I believe without fear of reprisal. I want to grant these same things to all around me. Now, some of you will disagree with me. That is ok-what would you propose instead?
By: coloradokid on 11/24/08
PS-sorry for the misspelled words-I cut off a finger several weeks ago and am trying to get used to typing without it being there. Have a GREAT day!!
By: onevoice on 11/24/08
Malexm,coloradokid is on the right track-what if the standards you don't embrace are the exact standards someone else has decided they should teach your children, how will you counteract those teachings? So far you may have been fortunate to have "same like minded" people around you and your children. But what if someone elses influence is attractive to one of your children-lets say stealing, and your child sees that it is a easy, convient way to acquire items you won't purchase/or they won't have to use their money for, and the consequences aren't so harsh and "everybody does it" and they use up all the excuses because they don't see the harm in it, because they don't, no matter how you dole out consequences they will continue because the influence is so strong your rules don't apply-NOW WHAT? School should cover academics, not sexuality.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/24/08
onevoice...do you have any children? Having been a child, raised children and studied children, I can say from experience that despite a keen unwillingness to accept responsibility, the people most responsible for what our youth do or do not do are consistently shown to be the parental figures. What they model--not say, but MODEL--for their children has the greatest impact on the values each child absorbs. I am interested to know, however...are you suggesting that sexual behaviors including orientation can be taught? hmmm... =) ~OD~
By: Rose on 11/24/08
As someone who has recently been through the education system and who is studying currently to become a teacher, I have seen first hand the kinds of things teachers are teaching. Believe it or not, there ARE ways to instill "standards" "values" or whatever you want to call them in students without affiliating with a certain religion. If Susie steals Ann's book out of her backpack, a teacher can tell Susie how that hurts Ann and that it is wrong to take something that is not hers, instead of "Susie, you broke the 7th commandment." I assure all of you who have children in the school system or are worried about today's schools, that students are still learning how to be a good person. We are not teaching them that it is okay to kill, steal, or commit any crime. And there is no teaching of homosexuality--condoning or refuting. It is possible to be a loving, respectful, law-abiding citizen without following a religion. It all goes back to, as it always has, the parents. Teachers can drill the Commandments down a student's throat, but in the end, the child makes a decision to take it or leave it. The home life of a child has the BIGGEST influence on him/her. In the end, that is where children get their values. The only thing a good teacher can do is to try to influence his/her students to become contributing members of society--caring, loving, helpful, and respectful--whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Agnostic, or anything else. That is a teacher's responsibility along with providing a lasting education. Few people fully understand the difficulty of a teacher's job. And letters like Mr. Nesbit's does not help teachers gain the respect they deserve.
By: thinking on 11/24/08
Go, Rose! Awesome response! Thanks for deciding to take on one of the least-respected, toughest jobs in our country.
By: Rosie on 11/24/08
"The home life of a child has the BIGGEST influence on him/her. In the end, that is where children get their values." YES, YES, YES!! Rose. I have stated this several times in different postings and then often I wait for all the attacks! It is so true but I also believe that we are living in a time where parents not holding their own children accountable. It is so much easier to play the blame game and usually first to blame on the list is a teacher!! I also so agree with Thinking...a very difficult job but good for you!
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/24/08
Thanks Rose...! =) ~OD~
By: coloradokid on 11/24/08
Rosie-I couldn't agree with you more-parental responsibility is key-and I appreciate all the schools do with teaching morals and standards. Thanks for responding.
By: onevoice on 11/24/08
No, I am not suggesting sexual orientation can be taught. I said in the elementary levels it has no place. And if you believe teachers cannot influence a child, you're wrong. As I've stated it's HOW it is taught that can have an influence, positive or negative; body language, tone inflection, facial expressions, attitude, personal agenda etc. I agree with all who believe it is parental responsiblity, but come on, are you telling me the the rise in crime, drug usage and all the other negative things about youth have come about because of parents not parenting???? What about when a student is in school and being bullied and nobody did anything,or when the teacher is tired and banging books or yelling, or rolling the eyes out of frustration, or worse. Listen to the children, they KNOW when one is favored over the others,who does the teacher always say "nice" things to, they know who the teacher "doesn't like" most people only hear about it after the fact,or when we see it in the news. Most children internalize it and it does effect them because of the influence school has on them. Do you think THAT doesn't influence them. Children see and hear almost everything that goes on around them, they are VERY astute. It does influence them. Again I will thank the Nesbits for starting this conversation, and making people aware of what's on the NEA agenda. We cannot always wear rose colored glasses we do need to be aware.
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/24/08
Coloradokid (sorry about the finger, hope you are feeling better)....I agree with what you said above. I realize that not every home life is instilling good values (or much else for that matter) and having the schools aligned with values are of great importance, however, we could probably go back and forth about values and not come to an agreement with a few, but I would bet that most of them would be in agreement. As far as if a teacher brought their same sex partner in or my children saw them out and about with their partner......my children wouldn't even blink because of the world they grew and are growing up in. I'm not going to expect them (their educators) to live in the "closet" so to speak because God forbid my children would see them. No, I do not agree with onevoice in saying that a teacher's sexual preferance forces the children to deal, nor does it put a "burden" on them. Children are very accepting and loving. Rosie, I totally agree with you. With a child in high school, I have seen a few friends who have no home life to speak of and have had to grow up without a positive influence at home, with that being said, however, these kids have done wonderfully and one inparticular is a straight A student. I credit the town of Owatonna for that!
By: coloradokid on 11/24/08
Thanks OwatonnaMom for your concering remarks regarding my fingers and thanks to all who made this a fun and challenging forum. Have a Happy Thanksgiving with family and friends. And, if you have all your body parts thank God!! Thank God, family, friends, co-workers, bosses etc. for all your blessings this year.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/24/08
It is nice to have your young voice here, onevoice. Thank you. The influence of each person in a child's life is important but none of the circumstances you mentioned in your most recent post are out of the range of a blanket of responsive parenting. While some children will withdraw and insist upon autonomously coping with stresses of life, most benefit from having an adult or adults involved conscientiously in their life. Having said that, the most notable thing to me in the posts here is how the threads of thought have been weaving themselves into a braid of varied but cohesive notions. The braid is one of hope... Thanks all! ~OD~
By: RealityCheck on 11/24/08
Hope and Faith moves us forward. Fear holds us back. Do unto others...
By: BigBen7 on 11/24/08
First, let me say that I do not agree with everything that Mr. Nesbit has written in his letter. I am an educator and have spent 13 years in the field of education. I would be one of those folks that he is referring to in his letter. However, I take a different view point than many educators. I do not take it upon myself to teach things that should be taught at home. Secondly, in response to the person who quoted the Old Testament. You need to understand your Bible better. Those laws were intended for a population of people that was living under the O.T. law. When Christ came and willing gave His life on the cross, it eliminated the need to live by the law. However, the law is what gives us a measuring stick as to how we measure up to God's standard. By the short list of 10 Commandments, we all fall very short of God's standards. Therefore, we are in need of someone that can make up for our shortcomings. That is where Christ comes in. For those who think that my stance on homosexuality is only from the Old Testament, you are wrong. It is very clearly stated in the New Testament as well. For those who like to use phrases such as God is love and love your neighbor, those are great truths in the Bible, but you cannot accept that part without also accepting the parts that you disagree with as truth too. You either accept the entire book, or none of it. There can be no middle ground on this issue. Please understand, I have no hatred or dislike for any of you. I don't know you; therefore, I cannot dislike you. However, I can take issue with your use of the Bible in ways that fit only an opinion that you might or might not agree with.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/25/08
To each spiritual being on their physical journey I have this to say: Seek...never cease in seeking because it by seeking you will find the sanctuary of security that rests only in the exercise of your individual faith. =) ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/25/08
Thank you Rose for your comment, " the only thing a good teacher can do is to try and influence..." That's the point! So I will leave you all with this- be aware, listen to the children, because we have too.
By: Gordan on 11/25/08
BigBen7 - question - when you wrote, "You either accept the entire book, or none of it. There can be no middle ground on this issue." do you mean that people need to take everything in the Bible literally? Do we need to take into account the time the Bible was written? Thanks!!
By: BigBen7 on 11/25/08
Yes, I do believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Understanding the historical context of the book and the times it was written in does influence our understanding of the Word, but it does not limit it to only that time period in which it was written. Much of the dictionary was written hundreds of years ago, yet we accept all of it. If we are willing to do that with a book like a dictionary, how much more should we accept a Book written by the Creator of the universe through men on earth.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/25/08
The dictionary contains multiple definitions for most words for the same reasons that malexm has referenced a need for an understanding of historical reference to keep in context the voice of scripture. Time's passing shifts the meanings of terms and concepts. It always has and it always will. Much meaning can be extracted in a literal sense but that literal translation requires individual application. The gift of the spirit that accompanied Christ's sacrifice was instituted for exactly that reason. For example, the fact that the Bible states that the body is a temple is clear. Individual application of that general principle varies greatly from one person to the next because it doesn't say: don't eat red meat, don't live in cities with smog, exercise three times a week, take the stairs, etc. Even the 10 commandments' applications are taken literally but applied to varying degrees. Does "thou shalt not kill" include the ants that make their way into your kitchen or does it only extend to humankind...does it mean that we must leave a ventilator on for a person who is brain dead...does it mean we don't execute serial killers...the application is individual. I find it unsettling that parroting is still comforting to people. I am aware that it does offer comfort to many because of the environments I've lived in over the course of my life but it still boggles my mind and probably always will. =) ~OD~
By: Gordan on 11/25/08
Thank you BigBen7 - I just wanted a clarification. My understanding is that we can not take the Bible literally or it would make no sense. For example - if Jesus was actually assumed into the heavens in body, he would be in orbit somewhere. As we now understand, heaven is not above us - the universe is above us. I understand that many people do take the Bible literally, and I certainly respect your right to believe whatever you believe. We just need to agree to disagree. Thank you for explaining. OD - I agree with what you wrote - from my understanding - it was right on!
By: onevoice on 11/25/08
Individually, oh if only we all understood the same things in the same way, but we don't. We do it individually, we each have different perspectives brought about by experiences and by standards we've been taught.
By: EDDY on 11/25/08
Bible studies need to be taught at ones home and or church, NOT SCHOOL.When I was growing up in the late 60s & early 70s, we use to call kids gay, fags, & homos all the time. I look back on that and regret it to this day. Maybe if I would had a parent or a TEACHER teach me some understanding of the gay lifestyle I may not have been so cruel. When kids should be taught about this shouldn't be up for debate. At what age is it too early to learn acceptance??????
By: Gordan on 11/25/08
EDDY - well put. People who continue to refer to gay people as "evil" "ungodly" "abomination" are fueling the violence against gay people - just like the KKK fuels violence against people of color.
By: RealityCheck on 11/25/08
BigBen7, you mean well but you sound like someone who has never actually known anyone who is gay. I am not talking about meeting a person. I mean having them be your friend for years and come out of the closet later on. That changes your perspective. I hope you can have that experience. Oh, and dictionaries contain definitions, not stories, like the Bible. You are comparing apples to oranges. Besides, who is to say that all the editing that has gone on hasn't been manipulated? Its a pretty tough sell to say that you have to take all the Bible says, or leave it. "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." That one's for Pookah, who is likely busy filling holiday orders.
By: BigBen7 on 11/25/08
Reality check: Actually I have had a person who is a friend of mine come out of the closet later on. It did not change my perspective or my beliefs. I believe that while the Bible has been edited by men, God has the power to maintain the integrity of His word. I do not believe it to be just a book of stories. If you check your history, you will find that history backs up many of what you refer to as stories in the Bible. I believe it to be the inspired Word of God, and I believe it to be totally true and accurate. Eddy: Your are right, the public school is not necessarily the place for Bible studies. It is also not the place to teach alternate lifestyles to kids. That too should be taught at home if a parent should decide they want their children exposed to that idea. Acceptance is a tough thing to teach. What if it is my belief that poligamy is acceptable? Do you want that to be taught as acceptable in our schools? Acceptance and tolerance are nice thoughts, but often I find it is only okay if it is acceptance and tolerance of certain ideas. And whose ideas do we teach kids to accept? Often, we teach acceptance of everybody's ideas except Christianity. We have schools with prayer rooms for Muslims, but if a student shares his faith, they threaten to expel him (true story that happened just recently)? Why does one religion get accepted, but not the other? Do you want my ideas accepted or yours or someone elses?
By: onevoice on 11/25/08
That's why we need to be aware , well said BigBen7.
By: EDDY on 11/26/08
How about teaching accepting people for who they are, people like you and me. Wouldn't it be a sad world if everyone believed the samethings? We wouldn't be having these great posts. As my father told me many times as child and I now try to teach my son, " treat people the way you want them to treat you ". I think we can all, hopefully, agree on that.
By: Gordan on 11/26/08
BigBen7 - I'm feel bad for your former friend who came out to you. Typically people come out to others they trust. It is sad that he came out to someone who met his coming out with condemnation. What about "judge not..." How very sad.
By: sully on 11/26/08
BigBen7 - I assume that when you say history backs up these stories you are talking about the stories that represent our history? Or is it on 8mm maybe? Microfiche?
By: onevoice on 11/26/08
EDDY, acceptance to me means, to regard as proper or true. Choices are made, others do not have to accept those choices, we can turn the other cheek. My momma also taught me too not say anything, if you can't say anything nice. That doesn't mean I accept what is going on,it just means I will leave them to their own choices (within the law of man). All the other choices they have to deal with on their own. Sexuality interpretation should not be in. school.
By: whatthe on 11/26/08
But according to the Nesbits, the NEA wants all of our children to be gay. And according to them, all teachers follow the NEA "agenda." I know my kid's math teacher is mixing multiplying fractions with homosexuality (by the way, that is sarcasm). Also, didn't Jesus use parables to get His message across? parable |ˈparəbəl| noun a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels. ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French parabole, from an ecclesiastical Latin sense ‘discourse, allegory’ of Latin parabola ‘comparison,’ from Greek parabolē (see parabola ). Wasn't He metaphorically speaking when spreading His message? Isn't that a STORY? whatthe
By: onevoice on 11/26/08
Whatthe-WHAT THE
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
whatthe...unfortunately you will find that fundamentalists (in particular) and others with rigid religious zeal will embrace then abandon terms and concepts based on what suits the objective in mind. Free will, for example, is the foundation of their dogma but they will contradict that concept to promote a notion like the one BigBen mentioned. The notion that God's word has been altered by man but "God has the power to maintain the integrity of his word" requires (in application) the abandonment of the previously embraced free will. The power referred to is power over man's supposedly free will since some who have transcribed scriptures were only as "pure as the driven snow" and would not have been open to merely the Spirit's guidance. I do have a soapbox for the subject but I'll leave it in the closet alongside the notion I once had that people's value is directly proportionate to the number of choices they make that agree with mine...no, wait...I never felt that way no matter how strenuously it was promoted from my youth that I ought to. LOL Maybe instead of arguing semantics we need to engage in a meaningful discussion about what we can agree on. Perhaps we can agree that a person making a choice that veers from those we are willing to accept does still not earn that person a baseball bat to the head. It would seem that more than anything, the NEA and others interested in moving forward, would like to see a social environment in our schools that is safe regardless of personal choices made. Against that particular directive, there is no biblical argument. It isn't just what Christ taught, it is what he did. Peace to all of you...even those who vehemently disagree...if nothing else, take comfort in the fact that we will only answer for the choices we make for ourselves and for what we do unto others... =) ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/26/08
True enough OD-that is why some subjects should not be taught in a school.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
*smilin' and shakin' my head in a "silly ol bear" sort of way* I'm fond of believing that everyone has an intellectual access point but maybe not...lol Appreciate your young voice still, onevoice...as I've mentioned before... Happy happy holiday to all! =) ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/26/08
Somewhere along your way OD you should follow what you speak of.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
Please illuminate the incidents where I've missed the mark, onevoice...I am always open to the encouragment to aim better and more successfully hit the mark! =) Enlighten me, please? Sincerely and warmly, ~OD~
By: onevoice on 11/26/08
HA HA HA You know exactly how you play.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
onevoice...I'm not playing a game, I genuinely would like to know where my aim went awry. =) Even people who really are good at heart can be misguided at times. Warmly apologetic for any perceived misstep on my part, ~OD~
By: whatthe on 11/26/08
ostensibledichotomy, Very aptly put... onevoice, To put it plain, I don't agree with the Nesbits. They are entitled to their opinion, but if those ideals make them a Christian, I don't want to be one anymore. I guess I'll let my God decide my fate for that statement. I also believe the bible to be filled with stories. Again...parables. These stories tell us morals that we should live by. I'm done. Have a safe and wonderful Thanksgiving. (I hope the turkey companies don't have a hidden agenda. I really like turkey...does Butterball secretly promote dark meat over white? I better take both to cover all my bases..........) lol
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
whatthe...Thanks for the levity! =) ~OD~
By: BigBen7 on 11/26/08
I agree that Jesus used parables, which are stories. But, the fact is that both the Old and New Testament are factual, backed up by historical writings. While Jesus used stories, He existed on this earth, was put to death, and rose again. Also, the stories of the OT are true as well. It is not the Nesbit's opinions that make them Christians, if they are indeed. What makes a person a Christian is a belief and acceptance of the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is admitting your sinfulness before a Holy God and admitting that on your own, you fall short of the standard He has set. Once you realize that point, you understand that on your own, you have no access to heaven. It is only because Christ shed His blood and willingly gave His life to take on your sins on the cross and He rose from His grave that allows us to be saved from our sin. You must accept those facts to be a Christian according to Biblical standards. It is not about being good or doing good because according to the Bible, there is none of us that are good. We can not make it on our own merits. Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, baptism doesn't make you a Christian, being good doesn't make you a Christian. As far as judging others, that is not my place. I do not judge a person for the choices they make. However, I can very much disagree with the choices. That is very much a principle that Jesus endorses. Also, being a fundamentalist doesn't make a person any more irrational than being a liberal or any other label you might use. Being a fundamentalist simply means you hold to the fundamentals of the faith. However, a few have given the term a bad name. I do consider myself to be a fundamentalist, but I do not consider myself to be a crazy person with whacked out world views. Labeling a person based on their beliefs in a negative way is no different than labeling a person because of their skin color or race in by book. By the way, isn't that attitude a little non-accepting of "fundamentalists" and their viewpoints. If we are to be accepting, all of us need to be accepting of everyone. You don't get to pick and choose who you want to accept. I accept all people; I don't accept all of the choices that people make. Have a great Thanksgiving.
By: coloradokid on 11/26/08
Thanks BigBen7-I agree with you and well said. Accepting people for who they are and what they believe is not easy for anyone. I try to be accepting but if I not careful my biases show through. Have a Blessed Thanksgiving all-remember to thank your creator, your friends and family this year. We have much to be thankful amidst the economic situation. And, thank all of you for a civilized discussion.!! :-)
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
As pointed out, no group, affiliation, race, gender, etc is culpable for what some within those ranks choose to do. Various groups have often promoted certain notions that contradict what they present as their dogma, however. It was that presence of contradiction that I referred to when I mentioned fundamentalists. I should have referred only to my own experience. In my experience the incidence of selective use of concepts and terms is extensive and quite probably unintentional. From my youth I was surrounded by zealous fundamentalists in various forms. From early on I was keenly aware of the contradictions within the fundamentals that were presented to me. My quest for individual understanding of the roots of those contradictions led to much criticism but it was my journey and I was happy to take it and am secure in the continuation of that journey and its eventual end. I apologize if my suggestions related to that personal experience demeaned anyone. BigBen...I find your insights to be generally meek and tempered. In a world of impetuous rants, it is a welcome respite from the norm. Thank you. onevoice, if this post directs itself to what you upset you as well, again I can only offer my warm apology. No insult or harm was intended. If this is not what raised your ire, I would still welcome dialogue related to what did. Thanks! I agree with COKid...thanks for the civilized discussion everyone! Happy Thanksgiving, all... =) ~OD~
By: whatthe on 11/26/08
BigBen7, I am not disputing this...because I honestly don't know...so can you give me some examples of the historical writings? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I really want to know. Thanks, whatthe
By: Gordan on 11/26/08
BigBen7 - I understand your point about everyone being accepted - but it does seem to be very different. Let me explain. I do not see fundamentalists losing their rights to marry or adopt or have health insurance for spouses like I do with gay people. I don't see fundamentalists being beaten and killed at even a fraction of the rate that gay people are. I don't see fundamentalists being told that they should not be around children. I do not see gay Christians calling fundamentalists "abomination" "evil" "ungodly" and saying that God is telling them to do so because it is “the truth”. Whatever "nonacceptance" fundamentalists may feel - multiply that by 1000 and live it every day. That is “close” to what gay people are experiencing. That is not to say that anyone has the right to be mean to another person - what I am saying is to put bigotry into perspective. I can’t imagine any other group of people being slammed by Nesbits or others who claim that God is telling them to “speak the truth” and get away with it. I’m confident that if the same things that the Nesbits say about gay people were said about people of color, people with disabilities, Jewish people, fundamentalists… that OPP would not print it. Some argue that no “sexual orientation” should be “taught” in schools. It is "taught" all the time! Every school dance is “teaching” that heterosexuality the right sexual orientation. Every time a teacher is called Mrs., it is referring to her sexual orientation. The list goes on and on. The problem is that many heterosexual people don’t even recognize they are constantly “coming out” about their sexuality, and giving the clear message that heterosexuality the right sexual orientation. As a gay person – all I really want is to live and love the way other people do. I want my love and family to be recognized like heterosexual love is recognized. I don’t want to have to fight for what heterosexuals take for granted. I want and expect to be accepted as a human, a citizen, a good person. I don’t want to need to justify my existence or my love to anyone. That is all I want. I feel that is all that most gay people want.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
malexm...may I just say that I applaud your presence in this forum because it has been made abundantly clear in the past that there is considerable risk of hostility being directed toward you. You have earned, I'm sure, the strength you demonstrate and it resonates clearly in your insights. Thank you... =) ~OD~
By: Gordan on 11/26/08
Thank you OD - it's a journey. Believe it or not, I use to be a very shy, quiet, and afraid person. I think being an out gay person has pretty much forced me into being less afraid, and made me more determined to make a difference (whether I do or not, I don't know, but I try). Again - thank you!!
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/26/08
One cannot become gay by being taught tolerance and acceptance in school. One cannot become gay if they see a teacher out in the community with their partner. Homosexuality is NOT contagious, but ignorance is. Respect humanity and explore things you don't understand. Education is neverending.
By: ostensibledichotomy on 11/26/08
OwatonnaMom...wonderful way with words! Thanks! =) ~OD~
By: RealityCheck on 11/26/08
Kudos malexm, for your courage and strenghth. Your journey cannot be easy. There are some great people on this blog that will do what they can to help. To BigBen, here are some facts to argue against your arguemnet. There is now scientific research that shows no evidence that gay parents raise kids any differently than hetero parents. See mpr.org. There is no data to support this to be true in polygamist families.
By: BigBen7 on 11/28/08
Malexm-- I don't disagee with you that you feel unacceptance in the world. However, I would say that you and I do disagree on one fundamental point. The words that you highlighted are not my words, but words that come from the Bible.(abomination, etc.) From my viewpoint, homosexuality is a choice that people make in their lives. On this point, I believe you and I would disagree. whatthe--go to bible-history.com. You will find multiple links to many different sites that discuss the writings from the past that support the idea that the stories of the Bible are not just fiction writing, but historical fact. The site can be cumbersome, but it is a good site. Owatonnamom--I agree people cannot become gay by being taught acceptance and tolerance, but frankly, I don't believe that kids need to be exposed to these topics at the elementary level unless it is done in the privacy of their own home. I also don't feel that elementary age kids need to be taught about heterosexuality either. You can teach respect without teaching that we need to accept everything. Respect is more important than acceptance and tolerance. I respect people, but do not always accept their actions. There is a big difference in the two ideas. RealityCheck--There is also science that still uses ideas that have been proven false to teach that evolution is true. Just because science says something doesn't mean it is true.
By: Gordan on 11/28/08
BigBen7 - I'll tell you what - I will look at bible-history.com if you read http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/bishopspongon_homosexuality.aspx - This reading was written by Bishop Song, and is only one of many of his writings. Deal?
By: OwatonnaMom on 11/28/08
BigBen7- since we are specifically talking about the "elementary" level...I agree completely. I do not want my daughter taught anything of a sexual level at this age (second grade) and I do teach and demand respect for all here at home. With that being said, however, I would not look down on one of her teachers being seen in public with a partner. Sure that would open conversation at home, but a conversation I welcome. I also believe that this education needs to begin at the Jr. High level, the more educated my children are, the more successful they will be in life. As far as respect, acceptance and tolerance. I see where you are coming from. I respect all, but like you, don't always agree with choices. I firmly do not believe in condemnation of others and do not believe that people that are homosexual can't be "real" Christians and I do not subscribe to the philosophy that they are going to Hell. I believe that one is born gay, therefore, being a creation of God, therefore, loved by God, and led by God. I have children in high school, jr. high and elementary school. I have always taught respect, acceptance and tolerance. As a result, I have three very polite, well behaved and honest children. Anyone can read the Bible and relay their own interpretation. I choose and will always choose, to believe and KNOW that my God is a loving God.
By: onevoice on 11/28/08
The NEAs' agenda does not specifically exclude elementary levels.
By: RealityCheck on 11/29/08
Big Ben 7 - WOW. I have never seen the science you speak of that proves evolutionary theory. It is still that. A theory. Albeit there is more data to back it up than most Biblical stories, but that's the funny part. You can believe all kinds of outrageous stuff in the Bible, because its in the Bible. Anything else that might contradict the Bible or defies immediate explanation is apparently heresy to you? I doubt that's what you mean, but that is what you sound like. And with due respect to malexm, who on earth would anyone choose to be ridiculed and shamed by the likes of you BigBen7? Don't you think for one minute that after figuring out the enormous stigmas and discrimination towards our gay brothers and sisters, that NONE of them would choose this if it truly were a choice??? Give me a BREAK. Are we still living in the stone age here? Are we still really this ignorant, frightened, and mean? I hope not. That's not what Jesus was teaching, the last time I read the Bible. Is there a new version? Are we reading the same thing?
By: Gordan on 11/29/08
RealityCheck - I agree with what you wrote. As I have said, the only thing that I choose is to be out. I choose to be out because living in the shadows is not living. As I saw on a shirt once, "I am not only out of the closet, I am in the living room with my feet up!" I am very proud of being a gay person. I am proud of my gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgender brothers and sisters who have paved the way for me, so I can be out and proud and continue to work for equality. To me Christianity is about love. As John Spong wrote: "If the essence of our Christ is summed up in words that John's Gospel attributes to him, "I have come that they may have life and have it abundantly," then the choice is clear. Homophobia diminishes life; it does not make it more abundant. It must be ended; it cannot be tolerated even by making it kinder and gentler." Homophobia is hate, and anyone using the Bible to try to justify hate is no better than people in the KKK. Hate is hate, and no amount of quoting from the Bible will ever change that.
By: BigBen7 on 11/30/08
Reality check--I agree with your point that evolution is a theory and should not be taught as fact. However, I have also spent my entire career working in the school system and know that evolution is not taught as a theory, but as the factual way that this world came into existence and how we as humans have "evolved" from "our cousins" the apes. I have not ridiculed or shamed anyone. I have simply stated what I think based on what Scripture says. I am not ignorant, frightened, or mean. I also know of know human gene that has been identified that is linked to homosexuality. However, I do know several people who early in their lives admitted to being gay and then later for a variety of reasons realized they did not want to live that life. I also know several people who lived much of their lives in a heterosexual manner and later made the choice to live the homosexual lifestyle. I'm not sure what teaching you are referring to when you said "that's not what Jesus was teaching." I harbor no hate toward anyone.
By: Gordan on 11/30/08
BigBen7 - If someone "was" gay and then "became" straight - they are bisexual. Could you become "gay" if you wanted to? I know for sure that "wishing" to be heterosexual did not and would not work for me. I heard a "minister" on TV once state that she did not care if there was evidence to prove that homosexuality is genetic, she "KNOWS" that it was a choice. I have pretty much given up on trying to "prove" anything, since some "KNOW." I don't care what I'm gay. I think the reason is probably extreme luck:-) Also, I know that some people don't like the word "hate" being used to describe their beliefs or behavior, but, as I see it, anytime a person tries to diminish another person, that is hate. It is mean, and it is intolerable. I was just chatting with a person the other day who is heterosexual, and she said that she could not even imagine being afraid to kiss her boyfriend in public, or tell people that she was in a relationship. I do realize that it is impossible for many people to even imagine what someone else is experiencing, so I do get why you may not recognize your beliefs and behavior as "hate." In years past there were many people who advocated denying the rights of people of color and could not see that their beliefs and behavior were hate. To me, it's the same thing. BigBen7 - with all that said, I do appreciate you being withing to communicate about this issue. Though we totally disagree - I do respect that you are open to a discussion.
By: MichaelinVegas on 12/4/08
Bob Nesbit, old bean. It's been 20 years since we locked horns in the OPP over your narrowest of mindsets, and as disappointing as it is to see you haven't grown a bit, it's also good to know you're well. And now, I really do live in Sin City. Pray for me. I'm surprised you're still around, actually, since someone as tight with the Lord as you must be, and so able to know the pros and cons of everyone's life choices except your own, I would have thought the Lord would have selfishly yanked you back to Himself a while ago. But, He has inscrutable ways. So you are still at it, you old devil, irritating the heck out of people. I can't tell you how it's warmed my heart to read one more time the judgements from the throne of Nesbit, thundering down from the mountain upon the rest of us unworthy ones because we are not like you. Of course, why would we want to be? Bob, my wife works for the teachers' union here in LasVegas, and you need to expand your idea base beyond the Bible and right-wing Aryan nation CFR extraterrestrial conspiracy ravings and wake-up. The wealthy do not care about educating other people's kids. The wealthy and powerful exist in their own universe, hence the need for a Coonstitution. The teacher's union is part of the problem, true, but the union doesn't spend hundreds of millions on posh digs for superintendants and their entourages while front-line teachers spend $100 a month on materials and students go without books. It's a problem of politics and priorities, as are all of America's troubles today. When religion and politics become the same thing, then you have what Voltaire called i'infame, tyrranous infamy. A paradigm shift is taking place Bob, and if your paradigm has ever shifted, you know how painful that can be. Civilization is at the tipping point, and these are indeed the end days of myth and superstition dominating the rational thought that is needed if we are to make it to the future. "God" doesn't have anything to do with it. If we can't evolve, and take responsibility for our own lives and our world, we won't make it. There's a reason we're here during times such as these, Bob. We must learn to be God to each other. (Yes, even God loves gay people - He told me.) Problem solved. We can create a better world. It's not that it's impossible - it's much worse than that. It's not profitable. Shucks. Feel free to stay trapped inside your frightened, southern-fried evangelicalism if you must, but it's got to be unsettling to know that the door to the cell in which you cower isn't even locked. Push it open, and step out into the light, if you dare. Freedom of thought is the final frontier. And Love is the mutual acceptance of dignity. Better check your source. Love ya, Michael Shimpach lasVegas
By: whatthe on 12/4/08
Standing "O" from whatthe! And a bit of a chuckle...
By: RealityCheck on 12/6/08
Bravo! Mr. Shimpach!
By: Gordan on 12/6/08
Excellent Michael Shimpach!!
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