By: OwatonnaMom on 6/29/08
Bev, I do love your views of how you think the world should be, however, it is 2008 and although we can try to teach our children to abstain in the name of God, we have internet, TV and many other forces working very hard against us. The fact is I want my children to be educated in every aspect. We have open communication with our children and I am blessed to say they are open with us for the most part. I am not prepared to tell my children they will go to Hell for making the wrong decision. They will make their own choices, I just hope those choices are educated ones and "safe" (contraception) ones.

By: Sonny on 6/30/08
To: Ms OwatonnaMom: How derelict of duty to say, "I am not prepared to tell my children they will go to Hell for making the wrong decision. They will make their own choices."
~ If you really mean what you write, this is neglected parenting. Perhaps you think everyone is going to heaven so it doesn't matter.
~ Well, multitudes will go to hell because they made the wrong choice(s), and that's God speaking, not me.
~ 1) “Enter ye in at the strait (narrow) gate: for WIDE IS THE GATE, AND BROAD IS THE WAY, THAT LEADETH TO DESTRUCTION, and MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is THE WAY, WHICH LEADETH UNTO LIFE and FEW there be that find it” (Matt 7:13-14).

2) “Strive to enter in at the strait (narrow) gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and SHALL NOT BE ABLE” (Luke 13:24).

3) “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).

~ For you and your children's sake, my admonition would be to take heed. Choose to be a parent of admirable counsel based upon Biblical principles which we're given for instruction and warning. There will be hell for God keeps all His promises. "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death"(Prov 14:12).

By: OwatonnaMom on 6/30/08
Sonny? WOW, I quite speechless. My opinion is MY opinion and I am NOT a neglectful parent in any way, shape or form. First of all, your response would assume that I am Christian.......I am, however, your judgements of me are based on complete ignorance. I also believe that although I have brought my children up very well, they are going to go forth into the world making their own choices, with that being said, I want them to make educated decisions from all aspects. Your post goes back to a previous post I replied to, if I don't agree with someone's "opinion" I am insulted. I wonder how I would have fared back when people were stoned for their beliefs. My child came to me in an honest way communicating to me that they have been sexually active, of course it wasn't my wish for this to happen, but it has happened and my lecture to him was about protection and education. Sonny, I'm sure all your kids were perfect so you never had to worry about such a thing. We need to educate today's children PERIOD!

By: je_ne_sais_pas on 6/30/08
I am so glad that I gave up religion and became athiest so I dont have to listen to somebody gripe about me having sex.

By: Thinking_Outloud on 6/30/08
OwatonnaMom, don't worry about Sonny and his close-minded views of the world. He is offensive, he is judgmental, he is ignorant and he is the only correct interpreter of the Bible in his own mind.

I too am a Christian who looks at Sonny's views as being very offensive and hurtful...the opposite of what true Christianity means. A true Christian will not judge nor will he/she intentionally hurt others and then use the Bible as an excuse for their words. The Bible is a book that was written, not by God but by humans. Humans who are sinners. Because ALL humans are sinners.

However, our God is full of love and forgiveness for our sins. Our God understands that He is our only God, the rest is up for human interpretation.

I feel sorry for Sonny and his mean close-minded words. Just as I feel sorry for Bev (the writer of this letter). For they too will have to stand at the pearly gates and explain why their judgment and discrimination of other human beings was considered by themselves as the ONLY Christian way of life. They will have to explain their anger and hate toward any one who disagrees with their view of what the Bible means. God is LOVE...not hate and/or intolerance.

Don't worry OwatonnaMom...I too am an Owatonna mom who gets exactly the message you were sharing on this forum. You do not need to explain your position as a good mother to the likes of Sonny. After all, in the end, he does not believe that a WOMAN can spread the Lord's word anyhow.

By: Mike on 6/30/08
OwatonnaMom, I too am behind you on this. Just because a path is narrow does not mean it's the right one or the only one. "Judge not. . ." Christianity is not best served when it declares others damned, especially when they believe in conscience they are doing what's right.

By: OwatonnaMom on 6/30/08
Think_Outload and Mike, thank you very much! This issue is very close to my heart because it wasn't long ago I had this talk with my child. Before I dared approach this subject with my teen, I consulted with a pastor I highly regard....my father. He also communicated what you have said, we are all sinners, it doesn't mean we are damned, nor does it mean we are worthless. Again, thank you, I wish the both of you the best.

By: hubris.check on 6/30/08
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Matthew 7:3

Glass houses, black pots and kettles, etc. Owatonna Mom - do what you believe is the correct thing to do and you can't go wrong. These are YOUR children, and no matter what there will always be others out there judging us on our actions, lack of actions...you name it. But remain civil and live and let live.

By: OwatonnaMom on 6/30/08
hubris.check, but you know what? I was raised, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. We have lived here after moving from a big city and we have been judged and judged again. In my experience, if you are not conservative and quote blibical verses to satisfy your point, then you are shunned and frowned upon. It is NOT my place to judge others, but to learn from them. I grew up in a very religious home, but was still taught that to sin is to be human. Do I think I am perfect...perfect woman, perfect mother, perfect wife? Goodness no. I do the best I can. Am I proud of the communication between me and my children YES! I had my first child out of wedlock, when I was 18, does that condemn me? NO! I look at life as I learn something new everyday! I view others' opinions with patience and understanding, but condemnation? That is something I DO NOT tolerate, but have found here in Owatonna again and again. I will say again, Education is key. We are in a different generation now. Raise your children in the best environment, values, and morals, but educate them of everything. If you have raised your children to the best of your ability, they will make good choices. The fact that my child was HONEST and told me they are sexually active does not make me a bad mother, nor my child a bad child. But you know what? I educated my child well enough that they are alright and as a mother, that is what matters most. Education and communication, that is what is key to a successful parent/ child relationship! (In my opinion)

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ The responses above aren’t unexpected. They're typical. The reason? We all have a tendency to be defensive and not teachable rather than humbly receiving an admonition and considering that perhaps we do have a blind spot.
~ From my professional background I've often observed the tendency to blame the one who brings the matter to a person's attention. People frequently turn and accuse another of being hateful, full of hubris, "holier than thou," and, of course, the phrase "do not judge," Christ’s command from Matthew 7:1-3, is almost always “shouted,” being misunderstood or distorted. We surely must exercise good discernment and judgment about all kinds of things. Foremost, we should examine ourselves in order that we won't have to fear His judgment.
~ Here are some related situations:
~ Someone, out of love, tries to encourage a person against having an abortion, but he's told to mind his own business, and asked, "Who do you think you are?"
~ Someone, out of concern and love, tries to offer guidance against the homosexual lifestyle and he's branded as being spiteful and a hate-monger.
~ A person says they can't or won't tell their children that a WRONG CHOICE will send them to hell.
~ When a concerned person, myself in this case, gives insight against erring in such a serious way the verbal assaults are launched: hubris; indicating I’m a religious nut; claiming atheism is enjoyable while ridiculing the Bible, and so on. People who hurl such boomerangs of bitter response will in turn eventually be haunted in their own thinking and belief.
~ They'll receive, not unlike many others, the same as those who thought all a person had to do was be sincere, that God is always benign and sin doesn’t really matter. It will be especially damning for those who had clear opportunities, who were raised differently by godly parents, were perhaps told by the person down the street, known as the man of God, to do otherwise. Yet out of these opportunities of knowing and coming to Christ, they stubbornly rejected Him, going right ahead, doing their own thing against godly advice.
~ In hell there won't be any malpractice against the common and natural way they had chosen that led to their horrific Judgement Day and its unending impact. It will all be too late.
~ Know this. There is nothing you nor I can do that will shake His sovereign throne. You have every right to now decry individuals who were and are willing to be as a beacon. No one is forcing you. Yes, you can make hardened, negative, defensive charges as written above and claim you did your best, rested on education and condoms, and even boldly stated that wrong choices don’t lead to hell.
~ Many, blinded by the god of this world, will support you, but you’re terribly mistaken. Meekly submit to His Word.
~ People have a choice of how they want to react to Christ. No one is forced.
~ Some chose to call Jesus Beelzebub, and falsely said He was mad, beside himself...
~ To live out and react against Jesus and against a person who relies on the Bible for counsel will give you no peace, but instead you will be agitated and bitter.
~ Let you and me seek to please God for this glorifies Him even though people may call my shared insight/suggestion/consideration hateful, holier-than-thou, and that it amounts to smacking others with Bible verses… Such people are easily offended by Scripture.
~ The truth is that without saving faith and repentance none of us will see heaven. We're not going to be saved according to our way or as most people in town see it, but only by His way.
~ The Lord enable us with His grace to do His will.

By: Mike on 7/1/08
If I don't follow and preach the writer's interpretation of doctrine (or her pastor's), I go to Hell? She and her sect have a monopoly on truth and government should enforce as law their doctrine on others?

There are many reasons for learning about "safe" sex, even for those who will be abstinent until marriage . . . disease prevention, family planning, etc. No one argues that abstinence should not be a key concept in sex education. The writer is saying that the classroom should preach abstinence and and abstinence only because, if children know about condoms, they will want to be promiscuous immediately. That is a good deal like saying that, if children learn about antidotes, they will have an insatiable desire to poison others as soon as they have a chance.

By: cricky101 on 7/1/08
Thank you, Mike. Of course you didn't include any references from the Bible, so your coherent and logical statements will go unheeded by some of the posters who seem to frequent this site now. I'll see if I can find another nice piece of fiction from which to pull references to back up your statements.

By: Thinking_Outloud on 7/1/08
"That is a good deal like saying that, if children learn about antidotes, they will have an insatiable desire to poison others as soon as they have a chance."

Three CHEERS to Mike!!!!! I could not have put it better if I had tried! Thank you for the smile you have given me! What a gift!

By: js on 7/1/08
Quoting Thinking_Outloud: "The Bible is a book that was written, not by God but by humans. Humans who are sinners. Because ALL humans are sinners."

Speaking of true Christians, would a true Christian believe that the Bible is written by humans who are sinners, and not by God?

If you believe that the Bible is not the Word of God, why do you believe anything it says?

By: NordicBlaise on 7/1/08
WOW, anti-christ attitudes here I see. The greatest trick that satan has ever pulled is to convince the world he doesn't exist and I see that in convincing fashion here and now, on an OPINION page no less....
Well, if anyone reads into Biblical prophecy they would know that this exact thing, this bickering w/o knowledge of truth, this denial of the Message, this society which has been in a state of erosion will and must continue.
BUT as a follower of the Christ I must say that a lot of his followers seem to be blind or unwilling to actually HEAR the words of Christ. He was an advocate of FORGIVENESS, those who say that he judged while ON EARTH are sorely mistaken. Read the gospels again.
Apostle Paul took and formed Christianity into what it has become today, not Christ. True Christians are to be in a state of constant forgiveness, self-sacrifice, and always willing to SERVE fellow man, whether Gentile(the world) or Jew.
Christ said turn the other cheek, if you are struck turn the other. NOT RETALIATE! I didn't say it, Christ did. He also said that if any come and ask of you, give freely. AWESOME!! yet most Christians that I have encountered seem to not be APART from the world, as we are called to be, but rather are very much influenced and very much a part OF the world. Better to be cold or hot than lukewarm, you get spit out.

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ The primary issue, for me, that came out of this site of postings regarding Nesbit's expressed view was OwatonnaMom's comment that she, OwatonnaMom, doesn't want to tell her kids that wrong choices will cause them to go to Hell. That's heartless parenting.

~ For one who is a true believer, he considers: What if one makes the wrong choice to not believe...the wrong choice to be caught up with worldliness...the wrong choice to deny their Savior...the wrong choice not to walk in the light...the wrong choice not to forgive others...the wrong choice not to confess and repent... And yet, the writer claimed a wrong choice does not impact an eternal damnation of hell?!

~ One reason a person says this is because he or she doesn't really believe.

~ Others say the Bible is written only by men, denying that it's God-inspired and that there are all kinds of historical, archaeological support corroborating it, and many, many prophecies precisely fulfilled. Yet they choose to blindly make their wrong choice. "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" (John 12:48).

~ To those who don't believe, they hate the use of scriptural text. It's interesting that it bothers them. If the athiest truly believes there's nothing to the Bible why does he become so concerned and antagonistic against its use? He probably senses, although he professes differently, a gnawing tug that there just might be the spiritual reality as accepted by the Biblicist. These people might enjoy and benefit from an internet site called "Behind the Badge" by Ralph Dettwiler. From his grid that pops up click on the category "eternal security" and you can read comments from people who dialogued with him just as you do.

~ Now, as far as the misuse of sex, we can make wrong choices in that area and that does impact our eternal state after this present life. There are all kinds of passages that speak about damnation for making the wrong choice about this: Gal 6:7-8; Heb 13:4; and Rev 21:8, and many other citations. I would really encourage readers to get into the Bible and read it for themselves, not to believe what they want to believe, what others tell them to believe, or what liberal pastors, called false prophets in the Bible, clerics of malpractice, tell them when they say the sexually immoral can go to heaven.

~ Gal 6:7-8, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap CORRUPTION; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap LIFE EVERLASTING."

~ Heb 13:4, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: BUT WHOREMONGERS AND ADULTERERS GOD WILL JUDGE."

~ Rev 21:8, "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and WHOREMONGERS, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNETH WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

~ To those who don't believe and scoff and to those who declare that wrong choices won't send a person to hell, our purpose is not to be, as it were, a limited insect against the almighty, all-knowing, all-powerful Creator of the univers.

~ By His grace, choose to be on the Lord's side, yielding... submitting... surrendering unto Him with gratitude.

By: Mike on 7/1/08
To question a specific interpretation of the Bible, particular as it applies to condoms of which the Bible does not speak except by very strained application used, ironically, by Bible literalists, is not anti-Christian, nor does it suggest that one is going to Hell.

I question only those who feel comfortable PLAYING God and damning others.

By: coloradokid88 on 7/1/08
While I think that abstinence (sp??) is the best education and best choice I also realize that no matter how much we educate and wish for our kids they will make their own decisions. It is our responsibility to educate and guide our children but in the end the choice and consequences are theirs.

I always told my kids (boys) 2 things-1-know how you will handle a sexual situation BEFORE you get into the situation because once you are in the situation you not think logically and 2-there are consequences for every decision we make-good, bad, and horrible.

Both of my children are adopted from birth mothers who had sex outside of marriage. I am so glad they chose adoption over abortion so we had the opportunity to adopt. I am sure there were negative consequences for that "sin" for the women but some positives came as a result.

One last point-while adultery (sex outside of marriage) is declared to be a sin in the Bible so is lying, speeding, cheating, murder, slander, etc. God does not have a scale of bad sins versus good sins-they are all sins and we are responsible for them. Each of the above mentioned "sins" (and others) potentially carry different consequences-good, bad or horrible. Everyone on this earth has done some sort of sin against God-probably on a daily basis.

I learned several years ago I cannot control how others act or feel, but I CAN control myself. I have a difficult time keeping myself on the straight and narrow to worry about someone else.

Religion is more than a list of do's and don'ts-it is a personal (underline-personal) relationship/walk with God and even the most holy fall short.

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ That the above writer judgmentally declares that I’m “comfortable playing God and damning others” doesn’t mean it’s true.

~ OwatonnaMom’s statement with blanket application for others with the same worldly view was word for word, “I AM NOT PREPARED TO TELL my CHILDREN they will GO TO HELL for making the WRONG DECISION. They will MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES, I just hope those choices are educated ones and "safe" (contraception) ones.”

~ What? Safe according to mom’s standard or God’s?

~ Many HUSBANDS and WIVES, ourselves included, often enjoy sexual intercourse at times with the use of prophylactics.

~ This does not mean that our CHILDREN are to be engaged the same way in premarital sex according to their supposedly “educated” choice of condom use.

By: sully on 7/1/08
Isn't this sex education going to be taught in schools free from religious babel? Get a clue people none of what you are saying counts for anything in today's society! Deal! Obviously abstinence is the best policy, but don't for one second be fooled that parents are the most influential influence when kids hit 11-12-13 to do so is to set them up for failure. Give them the best tools you can for them to make the right decision in any circumstance, but to not educate is foolish. If you don't like these facts logoff jump in your horse and buggy take the 3 day trip to Saint Paul and start your protests. Make sure you blow out the lanterns before you leave!

By: Mike on 7/1/08
Once again, educating young people about the use of condoms is not advocacy that they use them immediately. The two are being confused to a point of absurdity. There are many things we teach children about before they need or are ready to apply them: voting, lawmaking, and litigation come to mind immediately.

The original letter opposed state law that recognizes sex education as including more than abstinence only. This exchange has been turned into a "who is more holy" diatribe that is, ultimately, a wonderful example of one of the Deadly Sins: Pride.

Those who use Bibles as bludgeons do neither God nor themselves favors.

By: hubris.check on 7/1/08
Ummmm, OwatonnaMom - I was writing in your support. I never quote Bible verses, I do not attend to organized religion just because of these types of judgemental people. I was fighting "fire" with "fire" in response to the judgemental and apparently damming 'dialogue' here in hopes that they might listen, since it seems as if they enjoy quoting Bible verses and thinking we all listen.

I said glass houses, etc. to let you know that according to these folks ALL people are sinners and therefore have absolutely no place to pass judgement on you or anyone else besides themselves.

If you'd read my short post completely you would have seen that I said, and I quote "do what you believe is the correct thing to do and you can't go wrong. These are YOUR children, and no matter what there will always be others out there judging us on our actions, lack of actions...you name it. But remain civil and live and let live."

The problem with this issue is that it quickly becomes so emotional. The woman who adopted her children who were created out of wedlock, those who beleive that the government should be telling folks what to do in their bedrooms, what they should teach their children (and other people's children for that matter), and so on and so forth get wrapped up in emotion.

ColoradoKid: that's wonderful you decided to adopt - but the issue today in this town isn't that there are too many abortions - it's that these 16 year-olds are KEEPING their own children and are not properly taking care of them. They need to feel loved, and the only way that's possible is to keep their children, a selfish act. They drop out of school and the cycle continues.

If you haven't noticed lately, there were at least 20 pregnant teens at OHS this year alone. I don't think Bible verses or LTE's will help this issue. In fact, there is already plenty of that in this town and it's not helping so far. Most of these girls will not finish high school with their class and will likely only continue in the cycle of poverty, abuse and neglect many of them are currently a part of. Education is the answer, and not a Biblical one, to pulling oneself out of this cycle. Amen, Mike.

By: coloradokid88 on 7/1/08
hubris-while I agree with you education is the key I do believe the Biblical view is the best-my opinion and I will not try to convince you of that. That is your choice.

Yes, teens keeping their babies is an issue and has been since we adopted 26 years ago. The year we adopted our oldest the adoption agency had ONLY 50 white, caucasian infants to put up for adoption. The reason-abortion and single parents keeping their children. I do not have the stats but I believe abortions are high. Here is what I would recommend to high school kids-

1. Don't have sex before marriage--best option
2. If you do-protect youself
3. If you do, and you get a child, give it up for adoption, do not keep it.
4. If you do 2-4 get help for dealing with the emotions of those actions because there will be consequences=physchological and physical.

Example-my youngest son's birth mother was 16 yrs old whe she got pregnant-gave him up for adoption. What do you suppose are the consequences for it.
1. Husband doesn't know about the pregnancy
2. Wife lives with the emotions of sex before marriage and without the child. Perhaps guilt, shame, no child to love. Mom for some reason does not want to meet him while the son does.
3. Adopted son lives with the emotions that mom and dad did not love him-they abandoned him.

The list can go on and on. That is why I believe that abstinence is best-it avoids lots of problems regardless of what TV shows, the world views are or what society says is ok-the 21st century.

Regardless of what I think is best is irrelevant. We all make decisions and have to live with the consequences.

As I said-there are consequences for every decision we make-good, bad and horrible. Which can we live with???

By: OwatonnaMom on 7/1/08
Hubris.check, my sincere apology for misunderstanding your post, with that said, it keeps being brought up my quote of saying "I'm not prepared to tell my children they are going to hell" Sonny, you could not have misunderstood me more. My point was...I'm not prepared to condemn my children, telling them if they sin they will go to Hell, better is to learn from your experiences and ask for forgiveness for your sins. You have once again condemned me by stating that my style of parenting is "heartless" parenting. Because I want my children to make educated decisions in life? Because I have raised all my children very well and have a very honest relationship with them? They aren't perfect and nor do I want them to be! Sonny, I respect you wanting to educate others on your interpretation of the bible, but condemnation is unacceptable. My first post was for Bev stating that although I applaud her values, I also agree completely with better education in schools because of where society is right now (internet, TV etc.) You have jumped all over me ever since with personal attacks. It would have been more appopriate to say "OwatonnaMom, I don't agree with you and here is why", You don't know me or my children, I have very polite, honest, well-rounded and respectable children and receive many compliments on how well behaved they are, so obviously Sonny, I have done something right, 10 of those years as a single parent out of wedlock. I would rather my kids come to me when they've made a mistake so we can talk through it rather then condemn them to the point they go behind my back. I am a Christian and have also been raised to be tolerable of others and respectful of their beliefs, color and opinion.

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ “Religious babel” Really cute, SULLY…

~ and MIKE, you appear so confused… for you, apparently use of the Bible is bludgeoning, not guidance for doctrine/reproof/correction/ instruction in righteousness… You seem not to understand the fact that I was talking about a specific comment made by OwatonnaMom, a very pertinent comment. To be humble before my God with an attempt to witness to my neighbor through this means, and quote Scriptural text, to you, amounts to pride. I’ve made no diatribe about comparative holiness. That’s simply your easy and loose characterization of attack because of personal animus. At any rate, people believe what they want to believe…

~ And HUBRIS.CHECK, it really gets you that someone will speak and apply Bible verses, very offensive to you…Then you write, “"Do what you believe is the correct thing to do and you can't go wrong,” which, of course, in certain cases would be patently fallacious. You ought to recognize your words as such from your own practical living…

~ and finally to OWATONNAMOM, I stand by my comments of what you initially stated. --- However, in your recent posting you did state, “ …learn from your (children’s) experiences and ask for forgiveness for your sins.” Your latter statement is on the right track since FAITH and REPENTANCE are kingpins of salvation. Perhaps many of the above people don’t realize and understand this since they speak against and actually belittle and ridicule His Holy Word. It is great error to reject one who is a helper/witness/ and one who testifies of Christ and His grace. Your own rejection is revealed by telling such a person that he’s prideful, acts holier than others, and that he bludgeons, and condemns. But again, none of this is surprising. Christ tells us that there will be a great division over Him.

By: sully on 7/1/08
Sonny I just fail to see what any of these religious beliefs have to do with the subject at hand. That is why I touted all of these comments as religious babel. The laws of the land and education of the general public aren't tied to religious beliefs(at least they are not supposed to be). Why do you take such offense to people judging you when you are posting in a public forum(I know you will say you don't, but you do) I do find one comment you say particularly funny though. ~ To those who don't believe, they hate the use of scriptural text. It's interesting that it bothers them. If the athiest truly believes there's nothing to the Bible why does he become so concerned and antagonistic against its use? True athiest, which very rarely were not devout christians dislike the use of scriptural text because it contradicts itself in so many places. They usually know the bible inside and out. Just a thought.

By: Mike on 7/1/08
I have grown weary of discussing this with folk who behave as if they are so morally superiors to everyone else that God speaks only to them and that they must "tsk, tsk" everyone else as sinners. It is the worst kind of bigotry. You can't love Christ and disdain your fellow man.

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ SULLY and MIKE I've already pointed out that my focus was on OWATONNAMOM's comment about WRONG CHOICES and the need of a parent's obligation to speak against GOING TO HELL, not about laws of the land and education of the general public, per se.

~ No, the nontheist or atheist does not know the Bible well. The Bible actually calls him "a fool."

~ As for you, if you think the Bible contradicts itself, take a course in supposed controveries, for example, of the Old Testament of which I've done with an Old Testament Biblical scholar and seminary professor.

~ To a person who has been told or thinks the Bible contradicts itself, his approach should be to first consider his own lack of understanding since God's Word, in the original text, is inerrant and perfect.

~ It is hard to grow in this dark age because a lot of churches are just going through the motions, preaching the gospel of prosperity; looking for signs and being charismatic; falling for easy believism or the sacramental and sacerdotal priestcraft...

~ Instead, if possible, and again it's hard, but try to find a solid Bible-preaching church.

~ Beward of so-called Christian book stores as they have a lot of garbage like new age philosophy, phoney self-esteem, and so on.

~ Beware of what are clearly false groups who have much error such as the Catholics/Mormons/Jehovah's Witnesses...

~ Stating this may elicit a false charge of being judgmental, but we're Biblically mandated to reprove those who are in error.

~ Myself, I'm not a King James Only man, but that's my preference.

~ If there's even one reader out there who wants to seek and know God, I would think the gospel of John would be a good place to start, and also Joshua 1:8; Ps 1; and all of Ps 119. If a person will really get into His Word, meditate upon it, and engraft portions of it into his heart he will be blessed.

By: OwatonnaMom on 7/1/08
Enough already, seriously, Sonny, the fact remains, you are very judgmental. Based on the fact that you came in here shouting scriptures and believe that you are educating us all, does not make you a better person or parent. I am very comfortable with my faith and my parenting abilities. I search for constant improvment as a parent, but am confident that I am doing well. Open your eyes my dear, there is a whole world out there! You have continually tried to justify your personal attacks "heartless mother" neglectful parenting" "dereliction of duties as a parent", what a shame. Who are you to say I'm in error? That is nothing but ego. I am behind sex education, I embrace my homo-sexual friends, and I am proud of the children I am raising and yes, I KNOW I'M GOING TO HEAVEN!

By: coloradokid88 on 7/1/08
enough is enough...

By: Sonny on 7/1/08
~ Just stating the facts OwatonnaMom is not being judgmental nor is a reasonable use of scriptures which are pertinent to the situation. After all, you're the one who wrote about wrong choices and of those wrong choices, that there's to need to talk to your children about going to hell. Yes, that is indeed heartless and neglected parenting and certainly a dereliction of parental duties. Again, that's just the facts.

~ Unfortunately, while I remain very calm and at peace, you and others have worked yourselves into a real dither. It's amazing how you describe calm, reasoned responses as "shouting scriptures," "educating us all," that I think I'm "a better person or parent."

~ The fact that you state you're "comfortable with my faith" may not mean a thing. There are all kinds of churches where all kinds of people go and are comfortable, not challenged or given a charge to walk out the Word.

~ As far as, "Who are you to say I'm in error?" take your case up with the Lord, but the problem for the "natural" man (and woman)is that they cannot receive or understand. That's why they think Biblical commands, precepts,laws, and statutes are judgmental.

~ I have never written that I was against sex education.

~ I've taken the time to share much, but you diminish my effort as "nothing but ego."

~ By the way, as you "embrace" your homosexual friends, why not try to help them. If not, it's probably because you don't perceive anything wrong with homosexuality.

~ My purpose would be to try and help them live a God-pleasing way since homosexuals will not be heaven unless they have repented and turned from that morally reprehensible lifestyle. Since you and others would say that's judgmental, take your argument up with the Lord for it's in His Word. And, the way TOLERANCE is used today in society is not a moral virtue.

By: coloradokid88 on 7/2/08
sonny-drop it-people make more of an impact on others by living their faith than by preaching.

By: Evansmom on 7/2/08
Okay I've been looking at all of this and have been tempted to write, but have not. Now I can't resist. "Help your homosexual friends" Help them what...Find a partner. There is nothing to help..You don't just take a pill and become non-homosexual. This kind of thinking just drives me nuts.

By: OwatonnaMom on 7/2/08
Thank you to everyone who stuck to the issues here. Sonny, I will pray for you, you need help. Have a wonderful 4th of July everyone and remember, debating is educational and healthy, judging others and the namecalling is ignorant and inappropriate.

By: sully on 7/2/08
Sonny, I am not worked up at all. Not to say your ignorance doesn't confound me because it does. I'm sorry I don't buy into your fire and brimstone approach to the Lord. I think the message of God made it through in the bible, but man's touch has led many to error in their ways.

By: sassifilli on 7/2/08
Feed a troll and they will keep on spouting--
Happy Independence Day!

By: c2000 on 7/2/08
Bible bangers,,don't you just love em? I've got an idea,,why don't you give the Nesbits their own column in the Sat church section ..

By: Sonny on 7/2/08
~ Some people may have a proclivity toward homosexuality but even if that is their besetting sin they must not yield to it since they have a choice and CAN CHANGE from those desires.

~ “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11). Again, reading and believing the Bible would be ever so helpful.

~ Oh sure, we have all kinds of gay people touting their active homosexuality, prancing around in “Gay Pride” parades along with their increasing number of TOLERANT supporters.

~ But at last, after death, there’s the judgment. Please see Hebrews 9:27-28. They will be without excuse. “There hath NO TEMPTATION taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make A WAY TO ESCAPE, that ye may be ABLE TO BEAR IT. (1 Cor 10:13)

~ “…LET US LAY ASIDE EVERY WEIGHT, AND THE SIN WHICH DOTH SO EASILY BESET US, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us” (Heb 12:1).

~ People of the world reject God’s way.

~ His own can expect to be persecuted and labeled judgmental and receive ad hominem attacks. That just comes with the territory for one who seeks to love, follow, and obey His commands.

By: Evansmom on 7/2/08
A choice, like I had a choice in having hazel eyes? My problem is not that you like to quote all of these Bible verses, my problem is that you seem so excited about doing it to make yourself feel more above other people. I'm pretty sure that if a guy person could just wish it away most of them would have by now, so they would not have to deal with this kind of attitude by others. I have a better idea for the Nesbits and their clan....go buy some land and make your own little perfect happy world. I'm pretty sure you will be calling me some sort of name like sinner or heithen, (of course I guess who is not a sinner) but for your info..I am a born again Christian, who went to collage at an Christian school and pretty sure my eternal life is going to be okay. My last thought is do you type all these verses or do you cut and paste?

By: Thinking_Outloud on 7/2/08
With regard to "Sonny", I ask all Christians on here who are confused, angered and concerned by his words to please turn to Matthew 7.

It speaks of judgment and false prophets and what fate will await them.

Sonny picks and chooses those words from the Bible that suit his argument and agenda then says we all argue/disagree with God's words. No Sonny, we argue your use and interpretation of God's words!

He (Sonny) even chose a short sentence out of this very passage when it fit his agenda. Well, I am not picking and choosing, I ask of you all to read Matthew 7 in it's entirety so that you may realize and understand who "Sonny" really is.

Here is an online Bible with Matthew 7 earmarked for you to read for yourself: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=31

Take care all of my online Christian friends. Heed the message, and see this person for what he truly is.

By: Sonny on 7/2/08
~ Your bemoaning and wailing is like fighting against the wind. Though you try, you cannot shake His perfect Word. The natural man cannot receive His Word as these things are discerned spiritually.

~ But...without a hardened heart one can receive and then obey His command to hear God's voice: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Matt 11:15).

~ As Ryle wrote, 'There are thousands of men and women who go to churches and chapels every Sunday, and call themselves Christians. Their names are in the baptismal register. They are reckoned Christians while they live. They are married with a Christian marriage service. They mean to be buried as Christians when they die. But you never see any "fight" about their religion! Of spiritual strife, and exertion, and conflict, and self-denial, and watching, and warring, they know literally nothing at all. Such Christianity may satisfy man... but it certainly is not the Christianity of the Bible. It is it not the religion which the Lord Jesus founded, and His apostles preached. It is not the religion which produces real holiness. True Christianity is "a fight."'

~ None of us will be saved unless we’re called by the Father, justified by the Son and sanctified by the Holy Spirit to be saved. A true believer cannot be a friend of the world or Satan and sin.

By: coloradokid88 on 7/2/08
Sonny-give it a rest please-you have made your point time and time again.

By: Sonny on 7/2/08
Thank you.