Atheists address challenges, misconceptions on Owatonna

A atheism-themed billboard is pictured in Columbus, Ohio on Nov. 10. According to a recent Pew Research Center survey, the number of Americans that consider themselves non-religious has more than doubled since the 1990s.
(AP photo)

By JEFFREY JACKSON

jjackson@owatonna.com

OWATONNA — As Nathan Maas approached the Thanksgiving holiday, he knew what to expect.

Maas, 27, anticipated that when his extended family gathered together, just before they started the holiday feast itself, his grandmother would offer a prayer. And he expected that all his family members would bow their heads — everyone, that is, except Maas, his wife and their three children.

Though he was raised Catholic and even attended Catholic school in Faribault through the ninth grade, Maas no longer counts himself among the faithful. In fact, he said, he is an atheist.

“It’s the culmination of asking questions my entire life,” he said. “You know that annoying kid who kept asking, ‘Why? Why? Why?’ That was me.”

He is not alone. The number of Americans who say they are atheist or agnostic or who choose not to identify with a religious tradition has grown considerably over the past two decades, according to the Pew Research Center. A survey by the center shows that 16 percent of all Americans fall into what sociologists term the “none” category when it comes to religious faith. That’s more than twice what the number was in the early 1990s.

Still, despite the growth in numbers of those who consider themselves nonbelievers, it is not necessarily easy for them to let others know about their religious beliefs – or, rather, lack of religious beliefs.

Take, for example, “John Smith,” an independent contractor in Owatonna. Smith – not his real name – is an atheist. But it isn’t something that he readily announces to the world. Because he is in business for himself in Steele County, he is concerned that if people here – particularly people in the religious community – find out that he is an atheist that it will give “one reason not to spend their money” with him.

“I worry about the backlash,” Smith said.

In fact, Smith refers to nonbelievers as “the last closeted community” in the country.

“There’s a big stigma attached to it,” Smith said. “And, yes, I worry how negatively it might affect my business.”

It’s something that concerns Maas as well. Currently a student at Minnesota State University, Mankato, Maas is studying to become a social studies teacher. And he worries that once he has a teaching position that parents might object to his being in the classroom with their children.

“There are going to be people who don’t want me teaching their kids,” he said. “But I don’t want to make their kids think like me. I want to make their kids think for themselves.”

Much of the problem, both Maas and Smith said, was how people incorrectly perceive nonbelievers as immoral people out to destroy the faith of others. And there is evidence to suggest that the two men are correct.

Results from a 2003 University of Minnesota study indicate that atheists ranked the lowest among minority groups as the “least likely to share every Americans’ vision of society” – lower than Muslims, homosexuals, Hispanics, conservative Christians, recent immigrants and Jews. What’s more, those responding to the survey said atheists are the minority group most Americans least want their children to marry.

That image of atheists concerns both Maas and Smith.

“The idea that someone who is not religious is not moral is wrong,” Maas said. “I’m not ashamed of what I believe or don’t believe, though I’m sure I’ll have to defend myself. I want people to realize that I am not a bad person just because I don’t believe in God.”

Smith agrees.

“People think we’re out there to eat babies,” he said.

Nor, they said, are they out to destroy the holidays – the holy days – for Christians.

“What I find difficult is when people say that atheists are trying to take Jesus out of Christmas. That’s not really true,” Maas said.

In fact, he said, he and his family still celebrate Christmas “the way most people do,” with a Christmas tree and a gift exchange.

“I just don’t look at it as a way of celebrating the birth of Jesus,” he said.

Likewise, Smith said he is not bothered by the religious imagery associated with this time of year or the Christmas songs that are played in stores that have a religious bent to them.

“The carols don’t irk me,” Smith said. “I’m not out to go unplugging all the Christmas music.”

Yet, Maas said that he is bothered when nativity scenes or other religious imagery is erected on public property.

“I don’t want a manger scene on government property. That’s an endorsement of the Christian faith, and the government is not supposed to do that,” Maas said. “I know our culture is mostly Christian. I accept that. I just don’t want my government supporting religion.”

From ‘belief’ to atheism

Most people looking at Nathan Maas wouldn’t think that he is “different.”

“I blend in,” said Maas. “People assume that if you’re a white person living in southern Minnesota, you must be a Christian.”

But he isn’t. Not only is Maas an atheist, but he’s a card-carrying atheist at that – a member of the Minnesota Atheists.

The group, established in 1991, says in its mission statement that it is “dedicated to building a positive atheist community that actively promotes secular values through educational programs, social activities, and participation in public affairs.” It further states that the organization is “organized by atheists as a nonprofit educational corporation to promote the atheist viewpoint as a valid contribution to public discourse, to strive to maintain the First Amendment guarantee of separation of state and church, and to work in coalition with freethought and civil rights/civil liberties organizations where joint action is needed to achieve these goals.”

It is an organization in which Maas found kindred spirits.

“I’m a member because one thing they try to do is give atheism a positive name,” Maas said. “They’re trying to show that atheists are just like you. We just don’t believe in God.”

Maas said the seeds of doubt were first sown in him in, of all places, his ninth grade confirmation class in which he was exposed to other religions.. He knew about the Catholic faith in which he had grown up and about Lutherans, he said, but suddenly he was learning that there were other religions that had quite different beliefs.

“I remember asking my mom about it,” he said. “I couldn’t understand why I believe what I believe.”

So he asked his mother if those people of other religions were going to hell. When she told him no, he wondered what was the truth. He went through with his confirmation, though he didn’t want to. And, he said, he grew ever more curious and ever more doubtful of the faith in which he had been brought up.

John Smith’s story is similar.

Smith grew up in Iowa with his mother. Although, he said, his mother has become more religious in recent years, his childhood was not overly religious. There was a King James Bible in the house, and when his mother would put him to bed at night, she would often read him bedtime stories out of a book that contain Bible stories written especially for children.

Still, he described his family as “Easter-Christmas churchgoers.” That changed a bit when he was about 9 years old.

“My mother was trying to find us a church,” he said. “We were going to a different one each week.”

But even at that young age, he had his doubts about what he was hearing in church and especially the Bible bedtime stories his mother read to him.

“It didn’t make sense to me,” he said. “We’d read Noah’s ark one night and Cinderella the next night. And I was thinking, ‘Why is this one real and this one a fairy tale?’”

But “coming out” about their atheism has not been easy.

Maas said the first person he talked about it with was his girlfriend, now his wife. She was raised Lutheran, and he was not sure how she would react when he spoke about what he saw as the contradictions in the Bible. She accepted it and accepted him.

Speaking with his mother was another matter.

“She didn’t like it, and she still doesn’t like it,” Maas said.

But over the years, his mother has come to terms with it, he said.

“She has accepted it,” he said. “She says, ‘I know you’re a good person.’”

For Smith, it’s been a bit more difficult to announce publicly that he is a nonbeliever. It is not that he is ashamed of his beliefs, but rather that Smith, a self-employed independent contractor, is concerned that if people know he is an atheist that his business will be hurt.

“This is still a pretty small community,” he said of Owatonna. “Everyone talks. In a smaller community, you have to be more careful.”

So he doesn’t even talk to his friends about his beliefs.

“I respect their beliefs, and they respect mine,” he said.

Indeed, Smith said he is tolerant of the beliefs of others, though he draws the line at proselytizers or those who try to convert him to their religious beliefs.

He recalled once when he went to a woman’s house to give an estimate on a job. The house, he said, was filled with religious imagery, including Jesus Bobbleheads. After he gave the woman an estimate for the job, she asked him pointblank if he was a Christian.

“I wasn’t going to lie,” he said. “I told her no, I wasn’t.”

On his drive home, he was convinced that he had lost the job. Much to his surprise, the woman called and offered him the job. She told him that she was convinced God had put him there so she could convert him.

Smith, who is also studying psychology in college, was troubled by that.

“The more I view extreme religion, the more I see it as extreme psychosis,” he said. “If people were talking to a magic turtle or a hat the way they talk to God, they would put them away. Moderates I don’t have a problem with. I do have a problem with those with Jesus Bobbleheads who are trying to save me.”

Likewise, Maas said he has encountered people who have tried to convert him to their religious beliefs. Once, while driving on the interstate, Maas – who has a Darwin emblem on the back of his vehicle indicating, in his words, that he supported science – was passed by another vehicle. But once the other vehicle got around Maas, it slowed down.

“I think the person passed me and slowed down so I could read his Christian bumper stickers,” Maas said. Then he shrugged. “I wasn’t really troubled by it,” he said.

Although both Maas and Smith are members of Minnesota Atheists, they rarely attend functions held by the Twin Cities-based organization. In fact, neither knew that there was another member of the group living in Owatonna.

“You know what they say,” Maas said. “Getting atheists together is like herding cats. Atheists are so diverse. There’s not just one agenda.”

If they do have something in common, Maas said, it’s that most atheists are humanists who support the findings of science and push for critical thinking.

“I want people to think critically about their beliefs,” he said. “I deeply respect Christians who think about what they believe.”

Jeffrey Jackson can be reached at 444-2371.

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Member Opinions: By: secretsquirrel on 11/29/09 This is certainly going to be as well responded to as a B&B LTE (sounds like a sandwich). I like the magic hat/turtle remark. TOO funny. By: atlascollapsed on 11/29/09 How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to actually change the bulb, and the other to videotape the job so fundamentalists won’t claim that god did it. By: secretsquirrel on 11/29/09 Why do atheists get up early on Sundays? To comment on theological LTE/rants. G'mornin' jarhead. By: secretsquirrel on 11/29/09 Pew Research Center... Is that like a wine tasting club for people with good sniffers as opposed to good snifters? They'd have a blast with my laundry hamper. By: ksanh68 on 11/29/09 Unquestioned beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them. Just another atheist for world peace and harmony. By: O.Tool on 11/29/09 Come out, come out, wherever we are..... By: EAG on 11/29/09 Well hello there... By: otownatheist on 11/29/09 So I'm not alone in Owatonna huh? Those of you on here that are atheists, are you guys and gals members of MN atheists or at least the meetup groups or anything? If not check out this site: http://www.meetup.com/Southern-Minnesota-Atheists-Meetup-Group/ By: Vic on 11/29/09 You're definitely not alone. There are many of us atheists all over, even in small towns. I'm sometimes surprised by how many I wind up meeting. By: AstroComfy on 11/29/09 There are a lot of freethinkers in general, more than just atheists. Our newest group, Southern Minnesota Atheists, Realists and Thinkers seeks to be inclusive. We are only a social group, founded to build a community. (Many of the same members are at Southern Minnesota Atheists, as well.) Check us out at: http://www.meetup.com/MNSMART/ By: quinn on 11/29/09 Greetings... By: Jesus_isKing on 11/29/09 Well now I will be sure to ask others if they are a Christian before I hand them any of my In God we Trust bills. Christians support Christians. Thanks for the tip! I'm glad they are 'good people' though. Showing they do practice some of God's love..... By: ksanh68 on 11/29/09 Maybe one reason people have concerns about declaring themselves non-believers is because in the future he/she might move to one of the states noted below? Even though The U. S. Constitution states: Article VI. Clause 3 "... but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." Amendment I "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Here are the State Constitutions that discriminate against atheists. Texas Article 1 Section 4 says, “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.” Arkansas Article 19 Section 1 says, “No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any court.” Maryland Article 37 says, "That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God;" Pennsylvania Article 1 Section 4 says, "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth." Massachusetts Article 3 "Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law." Comment: Apparently non-Christians are not "equally under the protection of the law". North Carolina Article 6 Section 8 "Disqualifications of office. The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God." South Carolina Article 4 Section 2 "No person shall be eligible to the office of Governor who denies the existence of the Supreme Being; ..." Note: If you continue reading you will find that (in Section 8) the Lieutenant Governor must also meet the same qualifications as the Governor. Tennessee Article 9 Section 2 "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." Legislated discrimination seems to be alive and well in our country. Next thing you know some states could legislate against Mormons, oh wait, they already control and have their own state. Then, how about those darn vegetarians and their non-belief in eating beef, how unamerican of them. By: cvkrn on 11/29/09 Thanks for your openness in your article. It's truly amazing the intolerance for atheists, as though we have no morals or could somehow be bad people. Atheism is on the rise. I am hopeful that one day the majority will be on the side of reason and science. By: coloradokid88 on 11/29/09 "Everybody believes in something, I believe I will have more coffee". Pooh It would be interesting to see if atheists will ever call a minister when in need? Just a thought. When 911 hit many politicians asked people to pray for our country. When in need we pray, all other times we wing it---we don't need God. Interesting... By: quinn on 11/29/09 K, Pennsylvania might not be so bad.;) People being sworn in with the "good book"? Is changing your user name in the middle of a thread the modern day equivalent of dressing for battle? By: quinn on 11/29/09 I didn't pray on September 11th. By: secretsquirrel on 11/29/09 Maybe AAA is the Atheist's answer to the KKK? I never judge people on their religious beliefs, only their deeds. Everyone has to believe in something(or not). By: atlascollapsed on 11/29/09 WHile I know athiesm doesn't meet the typical definitions of a religion I have to think there are some similarities. As to Minnesota Athiests -"says in its mission statement that it is “dedicated to building a positive atheist community that actively promotes secular values through educational programs, social activities, and participation in public affairs.” It further states that the organization is “organized by atheists as a nonprofit educational corporation to promote the atheist viewpoint" So they are a group of people with a similar thoelogocal philosophy. They work to educate others about their philosophy. They work to promote awareness of their secular values in the courts and media and with groups of like minded people. Sounds like athiests have quite a bit in common with so called organized religion to me. It's kind of like if Anarchy can a form govt, athiesm can be a form of religion. Then again I think environmentalism and animal rights nuts also borders on being a form of religionn as well. By: atlascollapsed on 11/29/09 Q, While not a religious person, I prayed we would find everyone who thinks like the 9/11 terrorists and kill them all. Worked out so-so. By: secretsquirrel on 11/29/09 Well said. I always figured that atheism is like a bible with the word God removed. Same basic set of rules they just don't have to wear out their knees or bake hot dishes. All I remember is sitting there watching and wondering how long it would take to get those people. I never cared how. I still don't. By: BigBen7 on 11/29/09 Do atheists ask their insurance agents to take out any provisions that would cover them in case of an "act of God?" If they do not, are they going against their own beliefs? By: ksanh68 on 11/29/09 Atheism a form of religion, I must disagree, because not accepting there is a god does not involve an exterior authority, dogma or ritual. All of which are common in the established religions. Also, not having a belief in god is not based on a threat of some sort i.e. eternal damnation/hell. Atheists have a theological philosophy, I will also disagree. To be an Atheist, all you have to do is reject the god theory. And that is not theology. Do we have a philosophy, yes. If by that you mean a search for wisdom or knowledge and having a system of principles for conducting our lives. Even religious people are nonbelievers/atheists in regards to the gods of other religions and the sacred dogma of other churches and sects. Religion is a structured set of beliefs that are permanent, and the truth of these beliefs is held to be self-evident. So, religion can either be accepted or declined. What people miss is that religion is pretty much a yes or no question. Religion doesn't really allow picking and choosing and not much room if any for personal beliefs within their own religion. By: quinn on 11/29/09 A, I called my family, seemed more prudent. Bye, bye Rove, Chenney and Rumsfeld. And maybe W? No conspiracy theory crap just saying guys. If the Taliban would have coughed up OBL we wouldn't be at war with them. And if SH would have towed our line we wouldn't be in Iraq either. I feel like bush (the poster) pointing out what is common knowledge. Plenty of people have died, just not the intended ones, minus a few. As to the atheism issue, my knees are weak but my casseroles are strong. By: ksanh68 on 11/29/09 Q, if he is dressing for battle, praying isn't going to help him. By: NixManes on 11/30/09 Very nice article. It's nice to know that there are few reporters/editors out there who do take the time to write a fair and accurate piece about atheism and atheists. Bravo. Atheism is pretty simple--no beliefs. For those who are still not clear about it, trying to use a frame of reference in terms of beliefs, one of the best analogies to consider is the following quote: "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." (Popularized by Don Hirschberg and likely created by Mark Schnitzius.) By: believer on 11/30/09 In the article they talked a lot about morals. Morals are based on absolute truth. If there is no absolute truth, there can be no morals. You may do good things and be a nice person, but what are you basing your morals on? The image of the woman with the Jesus bobbleheads is disturbing. This is the "Christian" stereotype. Being a Christian is not about how many bumper stickers or WWJD bracelets you have. It is about a relationship with Christ. It sounds like Maas was first confused by his mother who explained things wrong to him. Why would you be a Christian if everyone was going to heaven anyway? I can see how that would be confusing. Also, I agree that it is not the atheists that are trying to take Jesus out of Christmas. It is all of our faults for making Christmas more about gifts and food etc... One last comment: The separation of church and state was meant to keep the state out of the church... not the other way around. :) By: EAG on 11/30/09 Just ask Jim and Tammy right? "I'd be wary of anyone whose belief system is the only thing standing between them and repulsive behavior. Why not assume that our humanity, including the self-control needed for a livable society, is built into us? Does anyone truly believe that our ancestors lacked rules of right and wrong before they had religion? Did they never assist others in need, or complain about an unfair deal?" -Franz de Waal "And frankly, I'll stack my morals up against a guy who thinks it's ok to kill all the firstborns of Egypt and to send bears to eat 42 little children for teasing a bald guy ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. - Heidi McClure By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 believer, what are the absolute truths you refer to? Which moral statement made by the faithful could not be spoken by a secularist? With your last comment you seem to forget or ignore U.S. history. Remember the voters' concern regarding John F. Kennedy's ability to keep his religion from effect how he might govern, if elected. And the constitution provides for freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Do you really want a someone of a different faith/religion than yours, effecting or dictating how americans are governed? By: stormchaser28 on 11/30/09 Atheist choose not to believe in Jesus/God - that is there choice but in the long run when Christ comes back to take all us believers to heaven, the atheist that truly haven't accepted Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior will be left behind to wallow in the pits of hell. By: TheHelp on 11/30/09 I don't believe in God. I do, however, base my morals on the deep love that I have for others and concerns about their well being. Not because I'm doing it for (what i feel) is a fictitious higher-power. Again, peace, humanity and love is what morals should be based on and mine have nothing to do with god. Please tell me, believer, how that is wrong. By: AtheistMom on 11/30/09 Excellently written piece. Thank you, Mr. Jackson. And no, when the going gets tough, atheists don't look to religion for comfort. In fact, Minnesota Atheists has many members who were not only evangelical christians but members of the clergy as well. I had a discussion with a priest a few years ago who admitted he had lost his faith and was now only covering his butt, just in case. As for morals, the universal "golden rule", which is older than the bible, is pretty much all one needs to be a good human. So please, don't rag on us about burning in hell. It's not nice. By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 Thanks so much for your contribution to the dialogue stormchaser28. A day without a threat of eternal damnation to wallow in the pits of hell, is like a day without sunshine to some I quess. And your proof that the budists, mormons, scientologists, muslims, etc. don't have the right answers to life's questions? By: atlascollapsed on 11/30/09 Wallow in the pits of hell? Well considering I've been through USMC boot camp, I'm a life long Vikings fan, I've been to a taping of "bandwagon" over in kato, my mother in law has an assortment of Jim Neighbors albums that I get to hear from time to time, and I get to read bob and bev letters on a monthly basis how bad could hell really be? By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 ac, hell, like marching on the grinder while the Santa Anna winds are blowing? Jim Neighbors albums...Oh the horror, the horror! By: atlascollapsed on 11/30/09 The funny thing about the whole debate is that both sides arguements are based on beliefs that cant be proven. The requests of "prove it" or "prove it doesn't" are baseless. I believe a certain pizza place has the best pizza or a brand of beer is better than another. Can I prove it? No. Does it make me wrong? No. Same thing with religion(or lack there of) in my opinion. There are reasons people believe what they do. Let them do so whether you agree with them or not. By: Jesus_isKing on 11/30/09 quinn: Thanks for noticing! It is more appropriate and I like it better, even in the midst of all this.... Battle? Every day is a battle against satan. The topic is nothing new. Been going on for thousands of years. "Either you believe in God or you don't." (I FIRMLY believe I will see God face to face someday). It is an individual choice. And yes, there will be a final resting place for everyone, after our earthly death. While we live, we are preparing for our final destination. Most people raise good points and I am glad no one got too 'out-of-hand' with insults. Our beliefs are a personal and important thing to us. The only way I can prove God is here is when I pray for something and 'whoa' it appears either in a few minutes or years later. He has provided help, words, people, money, food, jobs, health, and other needs for me. How would a person know what I need? It is God who knows. By: yoyoma on 11/30/09 Atheism is so silly and joining a group of "non-believers" is even more absurd. Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. By: stormchaser28 on 11/30/09 Amen - yoyoma. By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 ac, this is not about policing the thoughts of others. It's about protecting the freedoms of all of us. Religious belief to the extent that it doesn't affect me, I don't care. But when they scoff at science and try to effect public policy based on their religious dogma, I do care. "Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." Jon Stewart By: AtheistMom on 11/30/09 No, I can't prove there is no god, but I can prove that if there is a christian god he is a bit twisted. Reference the bible story of when god tells his army to destroy an entire tribe - except for the virgins who they can keep for their own pleasure? Reminds of the 911 muslim martyrs and their promise of 29 virgins in the afterlife. Who can believe in a god like that? Or is this a case of the scribe misinterpreting god's words (again)? I'm asking seriously and would appreciate a straight answer. By: quinn on 11/30/09 Jesus_is King, you hit the nail on the head when you said "our beliefs are a personal and important thing to us". A, Jim Neighbors? No wonder you drink.;) By: atlascollapsed on 11/30/09 K I agree about public policy wholeheartedly and Q hinted at the worst of the religion based laws. No beer for sale on Sunday! What's up with that. By: believer on 11/30/09 if there is no absolute truth, than everyone's morals are equal. Including people who think that degrading others based on the color of their skin is okay, or the many other things that people think are okay. If there is no absolute, then everything goes. Just something to think about... By: truthbetold on 11/30/09 I've always taught my children that Santa was not real, but there was a man named Nicholas who did things for others out of his love for Christ. I felt that if Nicholas knew that we turned his acts of kindness into something to idolize and worship instead of Christ, he would be very disapointed. I never wanted to lie to my children by telling them that Santa was real, and then have them doubt that God was real. I would have to say thank you for confirming my reasoning. This had been a bit of a disagreement between my husband and I. I had raised my oldest children (from previous marriage) in the truth, and the whole Santa thing was trying to creep in with our youngest. This comment opened my husband's eyes to the fact that my concerns were not unfounded. Merry CHRISTmas! By: TheHelp on 11/30/09 Just because I feel that god is a crutch and a justification for people does not mean that I we don't care about others. That's exactly what this article is about. I won't degrade someone because it is wrong. Not because god says I shouldn't. Like the article said, I won't eat your babies. By claiming an "absolute truth" (which I also don't believe can exist) is saying, I'm right and you're wrong. By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 believer, help me understand what you're saying by providing some clarification. What are the absolute truths you refer to? Are you saying that morals(making the distinction between right and wrong), relating to human behavior are different for some? Wouldn't that make it immoral behavior? Help me understand how you're connecting absolute truth and morals. Are talking about absolute right and wrongs? Are you talking about killing someone being wrong (except in time of war, of course)? Are you talking about lying to someone being wrong (unless done to protect them, of course)? By: B-STING on 11/30/09 I don't understand why this article is in the paper - it's not news. They are not having an atheist convention in town, they are not having a fundraiser, etc. Is this going to be part of an ongoing series that discusses different beliefs and how each belief affects a person's life? Again, I don't see a reason for this in the paper - it's not news!!! By: Geneva_Queen on 11/30/09 The Bible belongs in the Fiction section; right along with the Wizard of Oz and other children’s books. Religion is full of false promises and exaggerated claims. If there is a god, take a look around. Something is really messed up!! War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, and corruption. This is not good work!! If this is the best god can do, I am NOT impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being!! Doesn’t sound all Great and Powerful to me!! I’m proud to be an Atheist. I don’t believe in God, the bible, heaven, or hell. I gave up on all that hocus pocus about the same time I quit believing in the Easter Bunny and Santa Clause. When I confront those who believe in god, and ask hard questions (ones they can’t answer), I get the same response. An ashamed look on their face followed by the person turning their head the other direction. Why do they do that? Easy, because they KNOW they believe in something they shouldn’t. They KNOW they should have given up on their beliefs in grade school. The only reason people follow religion is because they’re a bunch of sheep following the majority. Too ashamed to admit they really don’t believe in god, so they live their adult life in a LIE. As the article states, there’s twice as many Atheists today than there were 20 years ago. Soon, you’ll see religion go away as the majority start following the rest who are Rational, and have been for many years. Religion will be a thing of the past, and rank right down there with the rest of the Cults!! Don’t forget to look at other countries and see how many fools are willing to DIE in the name of religion!! Are YOU willing to die for it? By: EAG on 11/30/09 Excellent moral guide people. http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html (great blog for fellow red A's, although how much murder, rape, human sacrifice, slavery etc can one take) I can hear the "But thats Old testament." already. So why keep it then? By: budlight on 11/30/09 i am very sory for the non beleavers or the people who dont have jesus in their lives.i am not trying to be sarcastic but willing to talk. give him a chance and devote just a part of your time each day to pray and you might change your mind and feel way better about your life and direction.you are worth the time so take it.i would not have responded to this unless i was absolutley sure that god was real.he is and he has lots to offer you.just remember one thing,what you may be passing up today could be gon forever or eternity. something to think about. By: quinn on 11/30/09 A, "well golly", you gotta buy more on Saturday. Still trying to figure out were Dante would have carved out a niche for JN's music. Why don't you get your mother in law some Pink Floyd or Al Greene? GQ, I finally saw that movie "Escape from New York" you were right it was, indeed, a cool flick. I "believed" in Santa and the Easter Bunny until I was 12 after that it seemed like I was milking it. No offense intended, but why so in your face with all your posts? By: Thinking_Outloud on 11/30/09 Is there a relationship between religion and the fact that cars are not sold on Sunday? Someone else mentioned liquor stores too. Again, a religious connection, or?? I am comfortable taking care of myself and my family and living in a way that is honest, true, kind and loving. If that is religion, then so be it...if it is not religion, then I am OK with that too. Still wondering about car sales? Just thinking out loud, of course. By: Jesus_isKing on 11/30/09 AtheistMom-you are sincere in your question and deserve reasonable answers. Wish that I could tell you so plainly that things would make sense to you. It is hard to believe in something for years then to have someone else tell you that your ideas are wrong. That is not my intent. From what I gather, when God would give direction to kill people, it was due to their disobedience to Him. The people turned their backs on what He had done for them and they were warned time after time to turn to Him and listen to, and love Him. They did not. How do we feel when our children, whom we would do ANYTHING for, ignore us and turn their backs on us? We were created to praise Him and live our lives in honor of Him. What should He do then? Those people in the Bible worshiped idols, rock and man-made statues, not Him. (Still happening today). Can you tell me where the 29 virgins are in the Bible please? I want to check that out. Thanks. Poor GQ has asked Christians what kind of questions? And Yes, I would die for what I believe. If men had obeyed God from the beginning, we would not have the wars, hurt, sin, lies and be afraid of God. Even Wizard of Oz had good and bad. One of the best loved stories of all time. And why is that? So G_Q you seem to ignore the promises that were fulfilled. The Bible is full of them. So please don't ignore them and simply focus on the things you do not like. And I sure don't believe that religion will pass away as you predict. It has lasted thousands of years and the body of believers has grown since then. We are here to stay. My answers are brief I know, and maybe they don't help you, but if you want to know morel. There are Christians out here that will certainly try to help answer your questions. By: therealtruth on 11/30/09 T_O - cars and liquor - has to do with Blue Laws http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law By: EAG on 11/30/09 sigh Can someone do a full compare and contrast of these 2, dare I say, thoughts for me? 1. And I sure don't believe that religion will pass away as you predict. It has lasted thousands of years and the body of believers has grown since then. We are here to stay. and 2. Those people in the Bible worshiped idols, rock and man-made statues, not Him. (Still happening today). I'd be interested to see the responses. T_O - The Sunday thing is quite funny considering the Sabbath is actually Saturday. Maybe have another budlight budlight. By: ksanh68 on 11/30/09 Everyone's a skeptic, about other Religions. Those of you who profess belief on this thread are in fact unbelievers, just like me. You doubt many sacred dogmas. Mormons say that Jesus came to America after his resurrection. Do you agree, or are you a doubter? Unification Church members think Jesus visited Master Moon and told him to convert all people as "Moonies." Do you believe this sacred tenet of the Unification Church? Jehovah's Witnesses say that, any day now, Satan will come out of the earth with an army of demons, and Jesus will come out of the sky with an army of angels, and the Battle of Armageddon will kill everyone on earth except Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you believe this solemn teaching of their church? Faith-healer Ernest Angley says he has the power, described in the Bible, to "discern spirits," which enables him to see demons inside sick people, and see angels hovering at his revivals. Do you believe this religious assertion? At a golden temple in West Virginia, saffron-robed worshipers think they'll become one with Lord Krishna if they chant "Hare Krishna" enough. Do you agree, or do you doubt it? During the witch hunts, inquisitor priests tortured thousands of women into confessing that they blighted crops, had sex with Satan, etc. then burned them for it. Do you think the church was right to enforce the Bible's command, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18), or do you doubt this scripture? Millions of American Pentecostals spout "the unknown tongue," a spontaneous outpouring of sounds. They say it is the Holy Ghost, the third god of the Trinity, speaking through them. Do you believe this sacred tenet of many Americans? Scientologists say each human has a soul which is a "Thetan" that came from another planet. Do you believe their doctrine, or doubt it? In the mountains of West Virginia, some people obey Christ's farewell command that true believers "shall take up serpents" (Mark 16:18). They pick up rattlers at church services. Do you believe this scripture, or not? How can you reject these beliefs, then have such a problem understanding how people can also reject your beliefs? By: Thinking_Outloud on 12/1/09 Thank you therealtruth...interesting information! I am not sure how I got to this age without having heard of the term "Blue Law"? Regardless, one of my many rules of life is, "If you did not learn something new today, then you did not LIVE!!" I certainly lived today and have earned my right to hit the sack. G'night all! By: believer on 12/1/09 It sounds like you all want a God you can completely understand. If humans can completely understand God, then he is not God. As humans we do not have all the answers Geneva Queen. And that is okay. God can see the big picture, we can't. It is humans that bring about all this bad stuff because of our sin. God wouldn't be such a great God if he let our sin go unpunished. Just like their are consequences for your children when they make mistakes, there are consequences for us when we mess up. You wouldn't be such a great parent if you just let your kids do whatever they wanted. Just a thought... By: ksanh68 on 12/1/09 Faith in the sanctity of faith itself is the ultimate sacrament of those who abandon reason for unreasoning religion. "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." Albert Einstein By: secretsquirrel on 12/1/09 God created man before there was cable. What better entertainment? Or, maybe cable created God so we would have all those great shows to watch... Billy Graham... Hour of Power... Power Rangers... Oops! Wrong power. Parenting: I tend to deliver punishment when the infraction occurs, not wait until my kids are grown (or dead) to do it. Sitting on the fence with this one folks. Intellect says one thing. Life experiences say another. Regardless, I DO believe that if there is a God, that God will render judgment more on intent than results. It would be pointless, even for an omnipotent being, top provide us with vast amounts of stupidity and then expect us to live 100 years without screwing something up. I know a lot of very good and kind people who have done some terrible things and I have also witnessed what many would consider "bad" people doing some amazingly compassionate things. Not right or wrong, just my own experiences and my own opinions without the in depth scientific OR theological research. By: TheHelp on 12/1/09 This is the greatest debate ever and all of the pushy Christians remind me of what made me doubt religion to start. By: joetheway on 12/1/09 In this debate there are four scenarios that describe the options and then the outcome you pick is your choice and you then experience the consequences of your choice. #1)IF: There is no god-and you do not believe in god. THEN: What is gained or lost from this belief? negative one + negative one = negative two or no change, no chance #2)IF: There is no god-and you believe in god. THEN: What is gained or lost from this belief? negative one + positive one = nothing zero or no change, chance at hope #3) IF: There is a god and you do not believe in god. THEN: What is gained or lost from this belief? positive one + negative one = nothing zero or some change but no chance #4) IF: There is a god and you believe in god. THEN: What is gained or lost from this belief? positive one + positive one = positve two or some change and some hope. I also like the idea that if God wished to hide from himself, he would hide inside of man, because man would never think of looking inside himself for God. I also like the thought that God is the only thing that really exists and we are all god just trying to figure out that we are god. This will happen on 12/21/12. Just like it has happened every other time this universe has cycled through it's existence. By: AtheistMom on 12/1/09 jik, Thank you for trying to answer my question, but you skipped answering why god ordered his army to kill everyone except the virgins so they could be raped. That was the crux of my question. The 29 virgins promised to muslim men who martyr themselves is not in the bible, it is in the koran. In these stories, god is using rape and sex as incentives to motivate violence. That is wrong, pure and simple. It seems to me that god could use a lesson in morals. I'm not out to end religion, I simply want believers to read the entire bible and know what they are endorsing. Christianity, as well as most other religions, is a cafeteria-style setup. Believers pick and choose the parts that appeal to them and leave the rest. It seems that faith based on selective hearing is easy, but few are willing to swallow the whole enchilada, and those that do put saddles on dinosaurs. Thus is my complaint about religion generally and christianity specifically. It is a huge smorgasbord of female oppression, violence, etc. with a smattering of heart-warming Jesus stories. And it's those stories that christians use to promote their religion while trying to keep the elephant in the corner out of sight. Maybe I was lucky, because in my Sunday school we were taught that Jesus was loving and gentle one minute, then told that he came not in peace but with a sword the next minute. It pretty much took the work out of figuring out that christianity was an inconsistent and contradictory religion. So, I sought information about other religions and found that they were all alike in that regard. The bad parts far outweighed the good parts, so I opted out and it was such a relief! Believers so often insist I will find joy in my life when I've accepted Jesus as my lord and savior, but I'm actually happy and quite content. I volunteer, I donate blood, and I help neighbors find their lost cats, yet the most faithful in my neighborhood seem to get their jollies by scowling at me rather than return a wave. So please, don't judge us lest ye be judged, eh? By: ksanh68 on 12/1/09 And now for something completely different" ~ Monty Python's Flying Circus Believing everyone has the right to their own beliefs, but also believing that we all should be able to defend any of those beliefs through civil discourse. A central dogma/doctrine of Christian theology is the Trinity, which teaches the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead. The use of "person" does not imply an "individual", self-actualized center of free will and conscious activity. To the ancients, personhood was in some sense individual, but always in community as well. Since the third century the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son and Holy Spirit." My questions are. If God is all knowing and the three are of one substance, doesn't that say that the "Son" would have known he was going to be resurrected? Then what was the price being payed for people's supposed redemption? There are many events that I could witness that would make me change my mind, I have yet to see any of them. "There are all sorts of things that would be comforting. I expect an injection of morphine would be comforting... But to say that something is comforting is not to say that it's true." ~ Richard Dawkins Don't feel sorry for non believers', we are liberated and enjoy life. And I for one believe I was born OK the first time. By: coloradokid88 on 12/1/09 Atheist Mom-I don't think you would believe anything someone said in defense of the Bible regardless if it answered your question. I am not sure you would believe in Jesus IF he sat in your living room. Your mind is already made up and nothing will change it, unless you have a life changing event perhaps. By: TheHelp on 12/1/09 Atheist Mom has made up her mind for a right reason. She is informed and has made the decision to not believe in a fictitious person whom no one will ever meet. I appreciate realistic people who don't seek solace in an imaginary person to make them feel better. Search yourself and others for this strength. All "life-changing events" I've ever experienced have enforced my non belief and I am thankful for that. By: believer on 12/1/09 TheHelp: It is okay for everyone that does not believe in God to be pushy, just not the "Christians"? Just a thought... By: O.Tool on 12/1/09 So believer, who's being pushy? I don't read anyone trying to convert you or condemn you to eternal damnation. Live how you live, believe how you believe, I respect your beliefs and would defend your right to do so to the death. I just respectfully disagree on some things. What's pushy about that? By: quinn on 12/1/09 coloradokid, don't just single out one person when you make a blanket statement like that. The same could be said of anyone posting on either side of the issue. Nobody is going to change their mind. You and your coercion, O.Tool;) By: believer on 12/1/09 I too respectfully disagree, and I feel that I have always been respectful on here. There are people that are extreme in both directions, not just Christians. It is not my job to judge, that is God's job. I can not be responsible for what anyone else believes but myself. I totally agree that you should be able to believe the way you want. That is the freedom that we have in our country and I wouldn't change it. By: budlight on 12/1/09 some times all you can do is pray for the SOB's what can i say? help is on the way? maby not today and for some tomorow is not looking any better. By: AtheistMom on 12/1/09 ck88, I didn't make up my mind to opt out of religion so much as had the facts of its irrational dogma and cruelty make up my mind for me. I do confess that I have a problem with trying to explain to men what it means to be a woman in a biblical context. Christianity, etc., is mercilessly demeaning toward women, depicting them as possessions, not persons, and the bible is a quagmire of misogyny. Religious men can't understand it, and religious women don't want to acknowledge it, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. The evidence is probably in a book near you. By: believer on 12/2/09 Atheist mom: Please read the new testament about Jesus. He sent a message of love and respect for women. The bible talks a lot about how God is the head of the Church (body of Christ) and how a man is the head of the household. Some women get mad at that point right there, but you don't listen after that. God loves the Church, provides and cares for his Church. That is the example set for these men. They are supposed to be treating women the same way. By: ksanh68 on 12/2/09 believer then how can it be said that these verses don't make AtheistMom point? 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV) 34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. "It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." Mark Twain By: secretsquirrel on 12/2/09 Frankly, I see little difference between one religion (Christian, Muslim, Judaism) with regard to objectives and gender pecking orders. "Holy" wars, dminishment of women's status in pretty much any church or religious organization. Is there such a thing as a New New Testament outlining modern standards of social orders/familial structure/acceptance of women? I haven't seen it. As long as the standards are the same and the there is no curve, I see no reason women should not be on par with men. That works both ways, I see no reason an unqualified man should be advanced over a qualified woman. I prefer intelligence and independence in all those I associate with regardless of gender and accord them their due based on that. "Usurp." You just gotta love a word like that. LOL By: believer on 12/2/09 It is interesting that people on here get frustrated with the Nesbit's taking bible verses out of context to fit their agenda, but many of the unbelievers are doing the same thing. Just a thought... By: coloradokid88 on 12/2/09 Atheists-the great thing about America is we can all worship as we wish, so let's all worship and believe what we want and let others do the same, without harassment. God Bless America!!! By: Geneva_Queen on 12/2/09 Quinn: My point is that there are many out there who go to church only because they're afraid to admit they have no beliefs, afraid that their friends or co-workers won't associate with them, etc, etc. Myself, being an Atheist, always hid the truth from family and friends, afraid that they won't approve of my non-believing ways. My parents, brothers, and sisters, were well aware I quit going to church, and they rarely go anymore either. Maybe their beliefs are still there, maybe not. I could no longer stand my parents pressuring me to attend church and get confirmed. Even after I stopped believing in God, or Jesus, I still attended church only to get my parents off my back. Once I finished high school and went out on my own, I stopped going. I'm more outspoken now, and I believe everyone out there should be the same way. Never be afraid to tell others what you believe in, or your lifestyle preferences. People need to ACCEPT you for who you are!! If you're a non-believer, who attends church services only to satisfy others, then you need to come clean!! Being HONEST to your friends is more powerful than convincing them you're something you’re not. Why lie? By: Jesus_isKing on 12/2/09 EAG on 11/30/09-- One reason the Old Testament is still important is because it speaks of the coming of Salvation in Jesus. Many things in the OT are fulfilled in the New Testament and they go hand-in-hand this way. It helps prove that the OT is fact and the two are joined. AtheistMom on 12/1/09--no wonder I did not recall the story of the 29 virgins since it is not in the Christian Word; the Bible. I also find it hard to believe something like that and to me, that is why it is NOT in Holy Scripture. So, sorry, I cannot comment more on that and what it means. I don't think the Koran was inspired by God. (II Timothy 3:16) therefore I don't support it. I have read the Bible's several times. ALL of it and I still endorse it. I cannot explain some things but that is where my faith comes in. I don't spend time trying to figure it all out. In constantly reading I do learn more and more. I believe it and yes, sometimes it is hard to 'swallow the whole enchalada.' Who understands everything? No one. Only God. I am trying not to judge you, but just because someone does 'good things' is not enough. There is only one way into heaven and you have been alerted. It is through Jesus Christ. You mentioned female oppression, do you not know men suffered also? And they are held more responsible. I am glad you donate blood-after all, Jesus' blood is your life line to heaven. He gave His blood for your/mine/our sins. to: TheHelp-if Athiest Mom She 'is informed and has made the decision' why is she asking questions? She has some concern for her life and is asking good questions. coloradokid88-what does an atheist worship? Some definitions of worship are: 'reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.' and 'to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).' [so you worship yourself]? and to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity. to Geneva_Queen on 12/2/09--I agree, as a Christian, that some of us go to the Church body with for wrong reasons. Don't worry, God sees through us when that happens. God forgive us. By: otownatheist on 12/3/09 All of these irrational, unfounded, BS statements are driving me crazy. I would almost have to write a book to cover all of these apologetic professions from you uninformed and ignorant xians. Atheists are not making the claim folks, we don’t have to prove or disprove anything. If I told everybody that I was a god, the burden of proof is on me, not on you to disprove me. The bottom line is that faith is just that, it is faith. Why can’t you xians just admit that and shut up. You can’t prove god, that is why it is called faith. Just a few thoughts….. Joetheway- Pascal’s wager has been debunked and is not a rational way to look at the god question. What does someone lose if they believe and they are wrong? Money, time, rational thought, I could go on in detail by I won’t. Now, if you use this “logic” of Pascal, how do you know which religion is right? If you only make your decision based on Pascal’s wager, and without absolute knowledge of which religion is right, you would choose the religion that has the greatest punishment for not believing and or the best reward for believing. So do I choose jesus’s religion, moses’s religion, mohammed’s religion, krishna’s religion, tom cruise’s religion, buddah’s religion, zeus’s religion, or any one of the other religions of the past? If I chose xianity, which one of the 30,000 some odd sects do I chose? Just a thought…. Coloradokid- One main thread of commonality among most atheists is that we are not set in stone in our beliefs. We have not made up our minds. Most of us, if confronted with indisputable evidence such as jesus in our living room, would be the first ones at the front door of church tomorrow. That is, if he could prove he was jesus by performing miracles because we atheists, (for the most part) don’t use blind faith or circular logic for our beliefs. Someone can’t sit in my living room and say, “yeah dude, I’m jesus the son of god, what you want me to prove it? No, you have to just believe, it’s called faith brother.” Just a thought… We atheists, once again, for the most part, base our beliefs on evidence. No matter what crap is spewed out of the mouth of believers, it is not evidence. If it was, there would be very few if any atheists. Evidence is not anecdotal, you can’t say “I prayed for my mom to get better and she did,” and call it evidence, that is not evidence. Why do you think there are so few scientists that are believers. The scientific method is the most accurate and reliable means to understanding our world. The evidence just doesn’t support in any way, the god hypothesis. Speaking of evidence… Jesus is king- Evidence is not when the bible claims to be the word of god, or the prophecies in the old testament coming true in the new. That is called circular logic when one says, “We know the Bible is true because the prophecies in it were fulfilled. We know the prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled because it says that they were.” Once again, not evidence. Just a thought… And you said you would die for your beliefs, but would you kill for them? Would you kill your child if you thought god told you? Would that be moral? Just a thought…. So you pray for something and it happens… eventually, that is proof for you? Like when people pray for rain for months and it doesn’t happen, then when it does rain in January 6 months later, that becomes proof of god? Or when a teenager prays to god to get laid or to get rid of his/her acne and it happens when they reach their 20’s, is that proof? Just a thought…. Believer- When my children make mistakes, there are consequences, like a time out, or grounding, and not eternal damnation in the pits of hell for not knowing which religion to follow or for questioning the claims of religion in general. Don’t you think that punishment doesn’t fit the crime? If god lived in America, his rules would violate our bill of rights granted to us by the U.S. constitution, it’s called the 8th amendment. I personally think it is a much worse crime to murder someone, but could a mass murderer ask for forgiveness to jesus and get into heaven while a good person who does many good deeds but just doesn’t believe in jesus end up burning in hell? Hitler was a christian, so is he in heaven, but ghandi, isn’t? Just a thought…… You claim that if god could be understood than he is not a god, that is such a copout. you should also know that only a sith deals in absolutes. Just a thought…. I will be pushy until your mythological beliefs are out of my secular government. I will be pushy until I no longer have to worry about fundamentalists harassing or even killing me or my kids because our lack of faith. I will keep being pushy until churches or religions that protect kid didlers (not to mention the kid didlers themselves) are held accountable. I will be pushy until religion gets out of the way of science. I will be pushy until I no longer have to worry about my rights being violated for not being gullible enough to believe in santa I mean god. I will be pushy as long as I have to. Hey it worked for the xians, although they were pushy with swords and guns and I’m just pushy with words. Just a thought… The bottom line on this god question is that we don’t KNOW. I’m pretty sure there is no god, but I don’t know that there is no god. I don’t have to try and disprove god, but I am free to dismiss your attempts at proof especially when they are such poor attempts. So when it comes down to faith and god, come to me when his existence is proven or you at least have a shred of evidence. I’m not asking for much, just a shred. Just a thought… By: BigBen7 on 12/3/09 owtownatheist--one question--would you die for something you knew to be a lie? 12 men who lived and walked with Jesus were willing to die very painful deaths because of the time they spent with Jesus and the things they saw. Wouldn't it have been easier for them to say, you know what, it was made up; it didn't really happen. Yet, they didn't. They were willing to be crucified upside down, cut in half, and beheaded for what they saw during their lives. By: coloradokid88 on 12/3/09 And, this can be proved by other books from history. Much of the Bible has been proved to be true-cities are being dug up all the time and being identified as cities in Bible times. Don Shelby just visited one of them on his visit to Iraq. The Bible tells a story of a rich man in hell asking Jesus to let him go tell his relatives of the consequences of not believing. Jesus said if they did not believe with the historical fact of Jesus' birth & miracles they would not believe a man coming back from the dead. Owtownathesist-you believe what you want and let those that believe in Jesus do just that. You do not need to resort to name calling etc. We do not do this to you folks. That is the beauty of living in America, we are free to live and believe as we wish without fear of reprisal. We should be allowed to voice opinions without being called ignorant and uninformed xians. By: EAG on 12/3/09 otownatheist, feels good to get it out huh. Boiled over didn't it. I'm with ya all the way. Really? Don Shelby. Wow. Don Shelby. Was it on the 5 or 10 o'clock? Who'da thunk it. By: coloradokid88 on 12/3/09 he went to Iraq about a month ago---he had a commentary on part of his trip last night, regarding walking where Abraham walked. It was a good story, you probably would of laughed at it though. By: Jesus_isKing on 12/4/09 otownatheist--Let's see how 'pushy' you are when you see Jesus face to face. Don't you realize that eyewitnesses documented evidence? Many different people can testify to the works of Jesus and God. Not just a few. These people wrote what they saw, touched and heard-that is evidence. I will always believe in God my Creator and your insults will never change my mind! Why do you need to call names and attack with insulting words? There are many eyewitness in the Bible that talk of what God and Jesus did. People SAW and touched and talked to Jesus. Simply, I believe the words of Jesus and not yours. WE each have that freedom. You obviously have not read the Bible thoroughly. If you do, I suggest you read in a version with words like we speak today. King James is hard to follow. Merry CHRISTmas By: budlight on 12/4/09 IF YOU ARE NOT ALIVE AND FEELING SOMETHING WITH IN, START PRAYING NOW!WHAT CAN IT HURT ? NOTHING TO ? AND EVERY THING TO ? GET THE PIC? GOOD NOW GO DO IT AND BE SURPRISED !!! LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT AND WHAT YOU DO,SO DO IT . GOD BLESS YOU! By: ksanh68 on 12/5/09 Don't make me use UPPERCASE! I can hardly wait for the conservative version, now in the works at Conservapedia. Rumored to be the ultimate and definitive version of the bible so FAR. Then I'll know CONTEXT. A Merry Winter Solstice to YOU! By: coloradokid88 on 12/5/09 A Merry CHRISTmas to you too. By: EAG on 12/6/09 ~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And for the rest of us, there's Festivus !!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~ ~ By: coloradokid88 on 12/6/09 Merry Christmas Eag---enjoy the Christmas holiday season. By: AtheistMom on 12/7/09 Someone has suggested that I am doubting being an atheist because I have asked questions here. Not so. I referenced an actual story from the bible where god instructs his army to kill an entire tribe but keep the virgin girls for their own pleasure. I said it reminded of the 9/11 muslim martyrs who were promised 29 virgins in the afterlife. My question was: Who can believe in a god like that? That is what I really want to know. Interestingly, no believer has answered my clear and direct question, although one christian has said that the promise of 29 virgins is in the Koran and, therefore, not the word of god. So, I will reiterate and ask again: How can a christian believe in a god that tells his army they can rape girls? No more dancing around the question, and no more fast-forwarding me to the new testament. I'm still waiting patiently.... By: BigBen7 on 12/7/09 can you give the reference to this Bible story that you are talking about? before i can answer a question, i need to know exactly where it is found in the Bible. By: commoncitizen on 12/9/09 Being what I consider to be a moderate Christian, I would have to respect and not judge others that have different personal convictions. What I never understood is how someone can be against something that they don't believe exists. If you don't believe in God, then why would a nativity scene be any different than Santa Clause or the Easter bunny. Perhaps we should mandate that neither of these symbols be posted on government property either. I respect your personal opinion, how about being tolerant of mine. By: AtheistMom on 12/23/09 Hello. Sorry so late. I lost interest for a while. To find the exact bible passages again all I had to do was Google "god orders destruction except virgins" and up it popped. But why should I have to direct a bible-pusher? Shouldn't a x-ian already know full well the book s/he's advocating? Oh, the irony....
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