By: Geneva_Queen on 11/22/09
Look at history:

More people in other countries have died in the name of RELIGION than any other cause. Currently 15%-20% of Americans are NON-Believers... AKA Rationalists.

Do you people REALLY believe in an invisible Space Daddy? The same one who will party with your ghost forever after you die?

Maybe if we had a President who DIDN'T believe our soldiers are going to heaven, might be a little less willing to get then KILLED.

Currently 20% of adults under the age of 30 are Rationalists. Now 20% is hardly a majority. But, it's a greater minority than blacks, jews, homosexuals, NRA members, teachers, or seniors.

God, Religion, and churches are a JOKE!! Only fools would believe such nonsense. God (anyones god) has never been proven... never has, never will. You are all crazy and need help. You know darn well there is no such thing as a God, Heaven, hell, or virgins waiting for you after you die as a suicide bomber.

Religion is nothing more than a CULT that tries to get FOOLS to believe that death is nothing to worry about. You all know there's NOTHING out there after death, NOTHING!! I dare anyone to PROVE otherwise!!

By: atlascollapsed on 11/22/09
Apparently intolerance isn't strictly reserved for people of faith. So much for live and let live huh?

By: Ok on 11/22/09
It’s easy to have an opinion … that there is not a God … just as it can be very easy to believe that there is a God … the question then becomes … what are we basing all of this on?

There’s been all kind of gods over the past 10,000 years; and some very clever and ingenious methods for special effects for the “proof” that people needed to “see and believe” … seeing something is nice … it makes it more tangible … but …

Faith is not something just limited to religion … yet, it is an integral part of it … but, so is faith in your family - your country – or your community … it’s a belief … that a family member will make the right decision when there’s a crisis in their life … or, if we stick together in times of trouble or great despair such as WWI or WWII … that we’ll come out better on the other side.

This country was founded on religious principles … and yet, it gives us the option to believe or not to believe without government interference … for those who believe in God … he offers freewill … and the option to believe or not to believe … both are pretty exciting principles … if you were to ask me.

Looking … with an open mind at all sides and all probabilities … offers one the option to see something that they may not see otherwise.

It’s a very large universe … and over time … volumes of books have been written … offering examples of unexplainable things … and concrete examples exist – ok hand prints in a stone alter … still on display in a 400 year old church … an almost 600 year old cactus cloth garment … that is still in tact – when it should have turned pretty much to dust by now … if you are unaware of what I’m referring to … and

Proving that God exist or whether we can get along with other people … is in part really up to us … we have to determine … what is important … and we have to look … go out of our comfort zone and look … and then taking what we’ve learned and using that information to the benefit of others in a positive manner … wouldn’t hurt either.

By: secretsquirrel on 11/22/09
I think we have found a new community facilitator. Great approach to resolving the issue:
'You're all idiots and should believe what I believe in, which is nothing.' LOL
Welcome to the new religion: ME-ism.

Ok... you have taken the record away from me... in the category of...:
"Most periods... in one... rant..."

AC: There was a BOGO sale on intolerance last week at Kwikie Mart. You must have missed it.

By: fairandbalanced on 11/22/09
We used to have CHRISTmas break and Easter break at our schools. Now we have WINTER break and SPRING break. The change was made so the people who don't believe in Christ would not be offended. That's sad. Our great country was built on our forefather's belief in Christ. If we make change for them, then it becomes THEIR country and we end up being the minorities. We are all created equal in the eyes of Jesus Christ our Lord and I am not so sure He's happy with what's going on. I want to please the Lord and I pray that He has mercy on your soul Geneva-Queen...

By: Geneva_Queen on 11/22/09
If religion is true, and their IS a god... then why is every other religion different? Why is everyone elses god different, why are the beliefs different. Just how many variations of the Bible are out there? Religion causes more disputes than race, but some go hand-in-hand.

George Carlin explains religion better than anyone else. Watch his video on youtube called: George Carlin religion is BS. You'll have to open your mind while you listen to it as there is some bad language.

By: Dallas on 11/22/09
G_Q: And I dare you to prove that there is NOT a God. One of the great things about this country is that we can still all believe (or not believe) as we please, so we are each entitled to our own opinions. There is no need for anyone to ridicule others for believing or not believing. But the Bible says in Proverbs, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God..." That about sums it up.

By: ohsindy on 11/22/09
Well I would like to thank ANY leader in the community who is stepping in to aid in this situation. The "leaders" at the high school have completely dropped the ball in relation to the specific circumstances leading up to and following the "attack".
Please read Dr. Tappers article in the OPP today. It's what I would expect from an administrator when describing an incident and lays out what I feel are steps that will allow those involved to move on.

By: singleowatonnamom on 11/22/09
It is great to see the religious leaders step forward to try to figure out what we can do to help prevent this type of attack from happening again. Unfortunately, I am not convinced that everything is all over, I think it will probably get worse before it gets better.
That being said, enjoy your Sunday, the Vikings are playing, and we are not buried under 6 ft of snow yet. It will be a good day.

By: Mike on 11/22/09
Dr. Johnson did not create the crisis . . . a few people in the community did. I sympathize with anyone who is expected to fix a mess created by those who spread rumors and judge without making positive contributions. The bigotry revealed in the past week has not been limited to racial and cultural hatred. Hatred for the public school is also apparent. I wonder if those who wanted quicker and more public action (retaliation) were the same folk who argued that punishing those who committed vandalism a year and a half ago was overreaction against "fun pranks." Damned if he acts quickly. . .damned if he waits for all the facts. Good things are happening because of collaboration of those who ACT rather than just "speak their minds."

By: owataguy on 11/22/09
geneva-queen must also be blind and deaf. Because, if she could see and be able hear how can you not believe that there is a God? Plus nothing out there after death? Wow, I have had the privelage/honor to be with someone when they passed on to the Heavenly home. Just before death,she sat up(been in coma for 2 days) held out her arms and a big smile came to her face, and Jesus took her home. Cant Wait!!!

By: Mozatta on 11/22/09
Again, I find it interesting that since this event occurred, not a single Somali "leader" has spoken with the Press, addressed issues at the school or attending discussions.

By: ksanh68 on 11/22/09
Could it be that in the current town climate, they want to ensure they have facts not just adolescent interpretations of the facts? Is it possibly that as a minority they want to choose their words carefully? I don't know.

Owataguy, I can sure wait.

By: FEIDO on 11/22/09
All the religions are like a horse race I once heard.You can put your money on a horse and hope that one wins.The bottom line is,your horse will cross the finish line as long as you stay in the straight and narrow(follow yhe 10 commandments).So wether your betting on Prodistant,Catholicism,Methodist or Muslim or so on,just follow the rules of the race.
Who knows,there probobly is no God or Allah and we are all betting on the wrong race.Maybe our supreme rulers are extra terrestrial and are watching from above and are everywhere and will only save the the most faithful and respectful for future breeding colonization.
We need all horses(religions) to step on to the paddock and talk to find out how to solve this and what to prepare for in the future.Those who don't should be left out of the race.Remember Muslims, Allah is not the only contestant in this race.
Like a good marriage,all conflics must be discussed as soon as possible.Silence just builds greater anger and possible violence the longer it brews.In a good marriage it is always fun to make up.It is very vital to have all sides talk,a one sided discussion will not solve much,just more conspiracy.

By: alittlebitofsugar on 11/22/09
Mozatta, I fully understand their reluctance to talk with OPP. This web site is OPP. It would be reasonable for them to assume that the vitriol posted on this site is part of OPP.

Those of us who have grown up in this culture know the difference. For us to move forward, the Somali leaders need to be a part of the process. In reading Dr. Tappers message elsewhere on this site, it appears as if things are moving ahead.

By: indian on 11/22/09
Jeffery jackson said early in the week that the peoples mess did not want to fan the flames but was covering a story. 6 days after the event the mess continues to try to come up with new angles to keep the story going. Hey jackson give it a rest already. Todays article starts out with another recap that everyone has read at least 5 times. Please send your reporters out to find another story to cover. Your fan is out of control.

By: secretsquirrel on 11/22/09
ksahn - Thanks for infusing patience in this thread.

By: EAG on 11/22/09
"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
— Christopher Hitchens

By: KevinB on 11/22/09
The tolerance here is amazing! NOT!!

By: quinn on 11/22/09
GQ, perhaps not the proper venue for your post. JMO.

By: Towanda on 11/22/09
Somali community leaders: we want to hear from you. Specifically, I think we need to hear you condemn violence; and to instruct your youth that reacting to an offensive opinion piece with violence is unacceptable and must never happen again.

By: Mr_Kite on 11/22/09
The Somali community leaders have no reason to address any of you. They owe you no explaination. You are all acting like there's this huge race war. You're all getting so carried away. Most of these posts are just confirming the fact racism is still alive. Racism, rumors, mis-informaton and a lot of stupidity is the greater part of what's posted here. A small group of people who think their opions matter when posted here. I'm done with this posting opinions. I don't want to be a part of people like you. Mr Kite is out of the building forever.

By: alittlebitofsugar on 11/22/09
Mr_Kite I have never agreed with a post more than I agree with yours. Thanks.

By: Bush on 11/22/09
MR Kite I agree with you

By: FEIDO on 11/23/09
That's right Mr_Kite,lets just forget it and hope it goes away like a bad toothe ache.If you don't get it fixed now,it will come back with a vengance.Then your going to have to pull it.

By: cialunatic on 11/23/09
Geneva_Queen, I was a big fan of George Carlin and I listened to just about everything he has said at one time or another. Yes, George Carlin was against "religion" and spoke freely about that. One of his famous sayings was "some religions are a form of mental illness." However, he did believe in some form of God, but just in a very simple form. That is my view too. I don't know what is right/wrong, just what works for me is good enough.

By: Geneva_Queen on 11/23/09
Dallas: Me? prove there is NOT a god? You actually believe in one? If someone told you the politicians would lower taxes and get everyone reasonable health care, you would call BS. If your friend says he caught a fish "this big", you would say BS. There are millions of situations in life where we KNOW people are lying. Yet when someone says there is a BEING floating around in the sky... watching all of us, you say: "okay, I'll believe it!!" FOOLS!!

Also, wondering why the OPP decided to take a racial fight at OHS and turn it into a religious thing. It had nothing to do with religion, and they should have left religion out.

By: believer on 11/23/09
What is rather frightening to me, is that in the article Klawiter said that "God created us all to be God's children, no matter what color, no matter what faith." I do not disagree with the color part. Someone's color is their biology. They do not get to choose it. It is how God created them. However, faith is a choice. God wants people of all faith's to come to him, but to have a relationship with him, they need to choose faith in him. Jesus said that NO ONE comes to the father but by me. I hope that I am just misunderstanding Klawiter, or that the paper wrote his comments in a confusing way, because if I am not, it is pretty scary for a reverend to not know the scripture!

By: steele_this on 11/23/09
I wish we could all just learn to get along. Wouldn't this world be nicer if people didn't believe their God is the only one?

I am glad that Christmas break is now Winter break. This change is good for everyone. There are plenty of other religions besides Muslims that appreciate this I am sure.

Also, this country was founded so that people would have the freedom to practice religion of their choice. Why is it that it's 2009 and we still have to have this argument?

By: trueblue on 11/23/09
Owatonna Mississippi, a beautiful community for the 1960's...

By: ksanh68 on 11/23/09
Well, we have arrived. Our little school story made the KQ morning show today. And the latest issue of Rolling Stone has a short article about Owl City stating: "he came from nowhere, Owatonna, Minnesota".

Believer, you're frightened? You must be referring to your belief that...God loves everyone...unbelievers and followers of other faiths will burn forever in hell, stuff like that?

By: tireman43 on 11/23/09
It is getting real sickening that the "rasicm" card keeps being played!

I believe that most people when speaking/writing are only using the word Somalis as to point out a side. Yet it is easier to call everyone racist! It is like saying a "skater"(which is skateboarder). I don't think the Somalis are all bad. There seem to be the bad eggs. I feel also, that the Somali community may want to step in and explain their dissatifaction with the events. It may add a little water to the fire going on.

By the way, some Somalis are causing problems in Rochester with the African Americans or vise versa. Which side would be called the racist there as both side are speaking out against the other?

By: luckeydogg on 11/23/09
Who won?

By: tireman43 on 11/23/09
Neither yet...

Go to topix and you can read about it. Its also on the Post Bulletin.

By: Bush on 11/23/09
We Won!! Now What?

By: believer on 11/23/09
I should have used the word saddened. I am saddened that people that claim to be Christians don't even know what that means anymore. God does love everyone. He created ALL people, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc... And he wants ALL of us to have a relationship with him. So it is our calling as followers of Christ to love others and speak the truth with grace and love. It is God's job in the end to judge, thankfully that job was not given to any human. Even though sometimes people think that is their job. I do have to say this though, I have had the pleasure of working with many Somali children in the school system as a sub and a teacher. They are sweet kids with a desire to learn about our country. Like ALL children they sometimes make mistakes, but that is a part of growing up. We all went through it no matter what color our skin is. I know that I am a better person because of the time I have gotten to spend with these kids. :)

By: ksanh68 on 11/23/09
Just trying to understand your position on things, believer. You have confused me a bit, but I do confuse easily. That's not really not hard to do, just ask the Mrs. K. I think she's used it to her advantage, but like everything else, that's just my personal opinion.

Anyway, you seem to be saying that the Rev. Klawiter's quoted remark first scares you and then you soften it to just being saddened. Since you've been addressing Rev. Klawiter's remark, I assume that your "I am saddened that people that claim to be Christians don't even know what that means anymore" is directed at him in particular or is it Lutherans in general?

Then you seem to change by saying, "He (God) created ALL people, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc...". Mea culpa but, if this God did such a thing, and since these diferent beliefs or nonbeliefs do not have a Christian interpretation of God, that is OK? And since people are born into various religions or nonbelief worldwide it can't be expected for everyone to have your specific religious beliefs. Wouldn't that mean that just by living a good life (definition pending) in your God's judgement would gain them heaven (if there were one).

You show commendable empathy towards the Somali kids, but I do find your religious statements confusing.

By: lightfighter on 11/23/09
WOW. I believe this is more of a criminal and cultural issue. If the church groups were trying to help it is just that. Way off track most posts are.

By: bornintheusa on 11/23/09
ISNT IT SO SAD WE HAVE ALL THESE ADULTS IN SOUTHERN MINNESOTA,WHOM DONT BELIEVE IN GOD NOR HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO LEARN THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD...MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS BOTH BELIEVE IN GOD AND JESUS MOSES AND THE WORD GIVEN TO MOSES IN EGYPT YET THEY STAND IN AWWW WONDERING WHY CHILDREN R HAVING SUCH ISSUES..
I 100% BLAME NOT ONLY OWATONNA SCHOOLS BUT ALL SCHOOLS IN THE USA THAT HAS TAKEN GOD OUT OF THEM..NO MORE PLEDGE TO OUR FLAG,,NO MORE CHRISTMAS PROGRAMS..NO MORE GOD ALLOWED IN OUR SCHOOLS..AND THEN WE AS CHRISTIANS WONDER AND R UPSET THAT MUSLIMS R PRAYING IN SCHOOL..BRAVO FOR ISLAM THAT TEACHES THEIR CHILD TO PRAY AND NOT B ASHAMED TO PRAY...AND SHAME ON EVERY CHRISTIAN PARENT THAT DIDNT GO TO SCHOOL BOARD MEETINGS AND FIGHT FOR OUR CHILDRENS RIGHTS TO PRAY AND SAY THE PLEDGE..I SAY BRAVO TO MUSLIMS THAT CAN B WHAT WE ALL SHOULD B WORSHIPPING GOD..O AND BY THE WAY IF U HEAR A MUSLIM SAY ALLAH ..THAT MEANS WORD GOD IN ENGLISH..
MAYBE ALL THIS WHINING SHOULD B FOCUSED ON TEACHING OUR CHILDREN ABOUT GOD AND GODS WORD....SINCE WE DONT FORCE OUR SCHOOLS TO ALLOW GOD IN THEIR LIVES

By: NotAMoron on 11/23/09
Bornintheusa, trolling can be fun, but you can't make it so obvious.

Leave G_Q alone. S/he is just going through a phase like many people do of firm subjective non-belief. Just has some growing up to do, that's all, and then will either become a Christian like the many of you or a more moderate agnostic like myself.

I'm also confused where you people are getting the idea that our nation was founded on christian principles. There is zero mentioning of God in the Constitution and the addition of God to the pledge was a reaction to the Cold War. Where are you people getting the idea that the nation was founded on "christian values?" A larger influence on the Constitution was broad economic and social-class motives. The founders were worried about economic chaos/instability AS WELL AS the rise of a somewhat egalitarian culture IN RESPONSE TO British intolerance.

Threats to property rights such as Shay's Rebellion and a rise of TOO MUCH DEMOCRACY from the Articles of Confederation are what helped to shape the Constitution, not some abstract religious principles.

By: Jesus_isKing on 11/23/09
Geneva_Queen on 11/22/09-YOU POOR DEAR. What have you got to loose believing in Christ? Better a fool than a sinner doomed to live eternity away from God. True, I have no photo of Him, no email address. Would that help you believe?
Do you say, "Oh my God" in conversation? If so, you must realize there is a God because you would name Him! There are those who believe and those who do not. And we wonder why the nation/world is in such bad shape?
GOOD JOB Dallas with your thoughts!
We believers will pray for you to know God oh Geneva Queen. (Do you really believe you are a queen-prove it). He is waiting for you since you are a special creation to him. He loves you.
indian_you want another story about the construction or water park?
Mr_Kite, why not give the Somolians a chance to speak their side of the story?
I was hurt by the removal of the cross on the mosque. How is he going to explain that one to God?
And do I understand that none of the teachers or administration have gone to training or classes on what to do if/when this happens? Do they not have a policy or guide in effect? Christians_START PRAYING MORE!

By: bornintheusa on 11/23/09
OOOO PLEASEEEE...BOTTOM LINE OUR SCHOOLS WERE MUCH BETTER OFF WITH GOD..CHRISTMAS PROGRAMS WITH JESUS AND SOMIALNS DO NOT BASH CHRISTIANS PRAYERS NOR JESUS...I AM 100% FOR THE CHILDREN WHO PRAY DURING SCHOOL..IM 100% FOR COVERING HEADS..SINCE IN THE USA WOMAN USED TO ALL THE TIME COVER..CHRISTIAN WOMAN..MAYBE WE NEED TO ALLOW CHRISTIAN CHILDREN TO HAVE RELEASE TIME CHRISTMAS PROGRAMS AND TO PRAY..PROBLEM SOLVED.. MY UNDERSTANDING A CHRISTIAN STUDENT ?ED WHY,,,IM PROUD HE DID..NOW WE NEED TO ASK THE PARENTAS THE COMMUNITIES WHY WE DO NOT ALLOW ALL CHILDREN TO PRAY IN SCHOOL OR USED WORD GOD..SHAME ON US.............

By: NotAMoron on 11/23/09
Bornintheusa, your posts are annoying and you are obviously just trying to anger people when you say things like "christian women used to all the time cover." You are a bad troll and I'm not going to feed you.

By: Jeremy on 11/23/09
The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank
Dante Rossetti
An atheist is a man who believes himself an accident.
Francis Thompson
there are no atheists in fox holes

By: NotAMoron on 11/23/09
@ Responder: "Better a fool than a sinner doomed to live eternity away from God."

This in itself is a sin. If your FIRST justification for belief is eternal life than you are sinning. I am not saying that the building of faith does not naturally lead to a higher belief beyond this justification, but pressing this on a non-believer is often ineffective because wanting eternal life for the sake of not burning in hell is a sin. If you want to convince a non-believer like myself, an emotional appeal is not going to work very well, as such a decision is quite clearly life-changing and a huge one, so I don't make it lightly based on circular logic and ideas that incite emotion in me.

For Christians, you people sure are intolerant and snobbish. I understand that part of being a good Christian is evangelism, but the way in which you approach G_Q's childish posts is childish as well. You people call yourselves adults?

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
NOTAMORON..IF IT IS ANNOYING,, THEN HUN DO THE AMERICAN THING..YOUR RIGHT NOT TO READ OR RESPOND..LETS NOT RESPOND SO CHILSIAH..
AS AN AMERICAN CHRISTIAN I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO POST AND RESPOND ..
MAYBE IF WE TAUGHT OUR CHILDREN WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS, INSTEAD OF THE IGNORANCE STATIONS LIKE FOX NEWS TEACHES SOME. THERE R 2 RELIGIONS ON THIS EARTH THAT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST..THEY R CHIRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS.WE NEED TO LEARN FROM EACH RELIGION AND TEACH OUR CHILDREN. OUR SCHOOLS HAVE LOST GOD IN THEM..CHRISTIAN CHILDREN HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE OFFENDED ,MAYBE IF TALKS WERE HANDLED SO THAT THE SOMIALIAN CHILDREN WERE MADE TO SEE, HOW THE CHRISTIAN KIDS R REFUSED GOD IN SCHOOL AND THEY R NOT..THEY WOULD SEE AND COMMINUCATE WITH PEACEFUL TERMS..
MAYBE IF WE AS CHRISTIANS TAUGHT OUR CHILDREN PEOPLE OF ALL NATIONS AND COLORS WORSHIP GOD DIFFERENTLY..MAYBE WE NEED TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN RESPECT AND MORALS..IT IS SO OBVIOUS BY READING THESE POST HOW MANY DONT BELIEVE IN GOD AND HOW MANY ARE NOT AWARE THEIR IS ONE GOD FOR MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS..SADS WE HAVE ADULTS TRYING TO FUEL A FIRE ABOUT GOD..

By: ksanh68 on 11/24/09
Want to know what real freedom is? Try appreciating each new day, with the satisfaction and joy of being alive, taking personal responsibility for your own life and behavior.

Religion teaches people to believe that there has to be something more, and thus makes it difficult for them to settle for what is.

I wonder why some people prefer not to control their own life. Preferring to live under the rule of a ruthless tyrant, rather than being truly free.

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
ONE GOD FOR ALL NATIONS..ARE U TEACHING YOUR CHILDREN TO B GOOD CHRISTIANS AS BIBLE TAUGHT>? ARE OUR SCHOOLS BEING FAIR TO ALL BY THERE NOT ALLOWING OUR CHILDREN TO PRAY OR SAY THE PLEDGE..THIS IS THE ISSUE..I SUGGEST EVERYONE CALL THEIR SCHOOL BOARD FOR GOD, FAIR FOR ONE FAIR FOR ALL..BRAVO TO THE CHILDREN WHO DO PRAY AT SCHOOL...

By: LovingLife on 11/24/09
Ksanh68 I know that you of all people know how precious our freedom is and the high cost of it. So to start I want to thank you for your service to our country that allows me the freedom to respond to your post on here. I will never have a true understanding of what it cost you.

I do appreciate every day and the joy and peace I have received from Jesus is my motivation to take responsibility for every thing I do, or don't do, to make every day of my life here count for something. I will never settle for what is when I know things can be better. Never settle!

I do control my own life, I have free will and I choose to live for my God and try to make life better for those around me in any way I can.

I am truly free as I know I am deeply loved by a loving merciful Father.

Please do not bother with all the examples of the "tyrant" in the Old Testament. There have been enough postings on this forum that we all know that you and I do not agree on the Old/New Covenant.

By: believer on 11/24/09
born in the USA: Are you saying that Muslims and Christians worship the same God?

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BELIEVER........100% SAME GOD ,ONE GOD?

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
bornintheusa--you should check your religions. islam teaches that Christ was just a prophet, a good man and nothing more. Christianity teaches that Christ is God. the two religions teach two very different things and i am sure that any Christian or Muslim would tell you that.

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BIGBEN..SO R U CLAIMING THERE IS MORE THEN ONE GOD? AND SERIOUSLY WHAT IS A PROPHET..IS IT NOT A MESSENGER OF GODS WORD.. WAS JESUS NOT A MESSENGER OF GODS WROD TO MAN.. SAWWWY MAN BUT ACCORDING TO THE APOSTLE CREED JESUS IS ..I THINK ON GODS RIGHT HAND,..,THEREFORE NOT IS GOD .........THE HOLY KORAN THAT MUSLIM HAVE TEACHES EXACT SAME SAME THE BIBLE DOES..MOSES NOAH,MOTHER MARY IS SPOKE OF MORE IN A KORAN THEN A BIBLE,..THE 10 COMDANMENTS R IN KORAN..SO I DO BELIEVE ANYONE WHO BASHES A KORAN THEN ALSO IS DENYING THE BIBLE..SAME STORIES..SAWWWY BIG BEN I WORK FOR A JEWISH CARPENTER NAMED JESUS..I WILL NEVER STAND SILENT WHEN ANYONE IS PRAYING IN OUR SCHOOLS

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
No, I am claiming there is one true God. The God of the Bible who exists in three unique forms--God the Father, God the Son (Jesus), God the Holy Spirit. The Koran does not teach the same as the Bible. The Koran does not teach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; it teaches that He was a prophet. Look up the definitions of a prophet and of God: they are very different. You cannot look at what they have in common to say they are the same. You have to look at the book as a whole: as a whole, they are very different. Try to find a Muslim that will agree with you--you won't be able to do it.

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
Sorry for the cut and paste, but a 30 second search online found this:

The first item in each pair is what Christianity teaches; the second item is what Islam teaches.

Monotheistic, Trinitarian, (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14). Monotheistic (5:73; 112:1-4), denies the Trinity (5:73).

Jesus is God in flesh (Col. 2:9). Jesus is not God (5:17, 75).

Jesus was crucified (1 Pet. 2:24). Jesus was not Crucified, (4:157).

Jesus rose from the dead (John 2:19-20). Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Jesus was the Son of God (Mark 1:1). Jesus was not the Son of God (9:30).

Holy Spirit, 3rd person in the Godhead. He will bear witness of Jesus (John 14:26; 15:26). The Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel (2:97; 16:102).

Salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:89). Salvation by sincerity and works (3:135; 7:8-9; 21:47; 49:14; 66:8-9).

The Devil is a fallen angel (Isaiah 14:12-15). The Devil, Satan, is not a fallen angel, but a fallen Jinn (2:34; 7:12; 15:27; 55:15).

Man is fallen, a sinner (Rom. 3:23). Man is basically good.

Disciples were Christians (Acts 11:26). Disciples declare themselves Muslims (5:111).

Worship on Sabbath (Exodus 20) then later on Sunday (Rom. 14:5-6; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2). Worship on Friday (62:9).

Miracles, numerous are recorded. No Miracles recorded, except they claim the Qur'an is a miracle.

Makes numerous prophecies. Makes no prophecies.

With all of the differences, please explain to me how they can be the same.

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BIG BEN I SHALL PRAY FOR U...IS A CHRISTIAN TO MAKE JUDGMENT OF OTHERS? ..ENLIGHTIN ME TO HOW U UDERSTAND ISLAM SO MUCH..? IF U DENY THE KORAN U R DENYING THE HOLY BIBLE,..SO U DENY NOAH> U DENY MOTHER MARY AND JESUS? DO U THINK MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN A DIFFERENT JESUS/A DIFFERENT MOTHER MARY> DO U THINK THE 10 COMANDMENTS IN THE KORAN EVEN THO SAME WORDS TO MOSES GIVEN BY GOD IS A DIFFERENT GOD..EVEN THO THE LANGUAGE IS NOT SAME ..THE WORDS R..SO DO U DENY THE COMANDMENTS GIVIN TO MOSES.
AND LAST ..BOTTOM LINE THE ISSUE HERE IS WHY R CHRISTIAN CHILDREN NOT ALLOWED TO PRAY IN SCHOOL AND I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE IS ONE MUSLIM CHILD THAT WOULD DENY ANY CHRISTIAN TO PRAY IN SCHOOL....
THEY RESPECT PRAYERS,,THE ATTITUDE OF PEOPLE CLAIMING TO B CHRIST LIKE IN THIS COMMUNITY IS SAD..AND FAR FROM WHAT GOD SENT JESUS FOR..

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BIG BEN TRYING TO IMPRESS WITH COPY AND PASTES DOESNT CUT IT WITH ME..I COULD COPY AND PASTE MANY THINGS FROM A BIBLE NOT SO NICE..PLEAAAAAAASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DONT SPEND YOUR EFFORTS TRYING TO BASH ISLAM, SPEND YOUR TIME ON THE PEOPLE WHO DONT BELIEVE JESUS EVER EXISTED ..I WOULDNT WORRY ABOUT MUSLIMS..THEY BELIEVE.. TRYING TO MAKE OUR STUDENTS HAVE MORALS DIGNITY AND TO B ABLE TO PRAY IN OUR SCHOOLS IS ALSO A IMPORTANT NEED FOR US NOW IN THIS TIME

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
bornintheusa--did you read the list above. you know, my dictionary and my Bible have many of the same words in them, are they the same? i can and do deny that the words in the Koran are the words of God and I do believe the Bible is the word of God. i can do this because i know as a whole, the books are entirely different in their scope and approach to Jesus, God, and purpose.

again, i would ask you to read the list above. with all of the difference in essential doctrinal issues, how can you claim they are the same?

oh, by the way, Christian children are allowed to pray in school. they can sit at their desk, stand in the hallway, be on the playground and pray. the difference is that they don't need a special place or time to do it.

i very much believe that muslims believe in a different Jesus. if you deny the deity of Christ, you believe in a different Jesus. if you only believe that Jesus was a man and not God, you believe in a different Jesus.

By: believer on 11/24/09
Muslims do believe in Jesus just like I believe that Einstein was a real person. Muslim's do not believe the same way Christian's do. Jesus is GOD in human form. He is not a prophet. Jesus conquered death. He rose from the grave. He is not dead, but ALIVE! That is our hope as followers of Christ. This is unique to the Christian faith. Born in the usa, your ideas do more to harm than Islam. I completely agree with Big Ben. Ask any Muslim person if they believe in the same God as Christians, and you will also get a NO.

By: believer on 11/24/09
Even the devil believes in Jesus... something to think about...

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BIGBEN..GLAD ITS YOUR PROBLEM NOT MINE ..BUT I FIND IT AMAZING THE MINUTE ME A CHRISTIAN SAID SOMETHING POSITIVE ABOUT ISLAM ..I GET TALKED DOWN TO BY CHRISTIANS..SEEMS LIKE U APPROVE OF ALL THE UNBELIEVERS,, COMMENTS..I CAN SEE THE OWANTOONA PUBLIC HAS SOME REAL ISSUES AND ARE TEACHING THEIR CHILDREN TO NOT BEHAVE VERY CHRISTIAN LIKE.. AGAIN ILL PRAY FOR YOU..
TRY TO WORRY ABOUT WHY YOUR KIDS CANT SAY THE PLEDGE OR PRAY AT SCHOOL,AND TRY TO TEACH OTHERS TO RESPECT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD..ONE GOD.. WE USED TO HAVE SOMETHING CALLED RELEASE TIME FOR OUR STUDENTS..EACH WEEK..NOT ALLOWED ANYMORE..WE USED TO ALLOW KIDS TO PRAY AROUND A FLAG POLE B4 SCHOOL ..NOT ANYMORE,,,WE USED TO HAVE CHRISTMAS PROGAMS NOT HOLIDAY PROGRAMS..DONT BLAME THE MUSLIMS FOR ALL THIS ..BLAME YOURSELF FOR ALLOWING IT TO BE GONE..

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
LAST WORDS..BIGBEN AND WHAT DO COPTIC CHRISTIANS IN EGYPT CALL GOD. AND BY THE WAY COPITIC CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN AROUND THOUSANDS OF YRS B4 AMERICAN SPEAKING ONES..WHAT WORD DO THEY USE FOR GOD?
AND WHAT IF IM RIGHT AND U R NOT..WHAT WOULD JESUS DO AND SAY TO U? IS A MUSLIM CHILD ANY LESS THEN ANY WHITE CHRISTIAN CHILD IN GODS EYES? BECAUSE U SPEAK AMERICAN ENGLISH AND SAY WORD GOD..R U MORE SPECIAL IN GODS EYES?

By: believer on 11/24/09
Maybe you should go into a classroom. I sub and teach. We say the pledge, use the word Christmas, etc... Christians do need to stand up for Christ. We are not blaming Islam, just trying to tell you that they are different...

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
I AM VERY MUCH AWARE THAT CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS R DIFFERENT,,,SO R CATHOLICS AND LUTHERANS..BOTTOM LINE..THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD..

By: ksanh68 on 11/24/09
Lovinglife, I appreciate your kind words, I also understand the importance you and others place on your religions. Please, remember what I said awhile back, my argument is against religion not the religious.

By excepting that we agree to disagree on our beliefs, it should not be taken by anyone as wishing the other ill.

I must respond with a quote to a comment made earlier by Jeremy.

"The sermon was based on what he claimed was a well-known fact, that there were no Atheists in foxholes. I asked Jack what he thought of the sermon afterwards, and he said, "There's a Chaplain who never visited the front." ~ Kurt Vonnegut

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
you are right, there is only one God; however, you are mistaken if you believe the God of the Bible is the same as the god of the Koran. there is a huge difference in what Muslims and Christians believe. if as a Christian, you believe they worship the same God as you, you need to ask one. i could care less what language a person speaks; what I care about is what you do with Christ. that is what separates true Christians from other religions. for all i care, you can speak pig latin all of the time, but if you don't believe in the message that Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified, died, was buried and rose again to provide a way of salvation for sinners, you don't believe in the God of the Bible.

Bottom line: Muslims and Christians do not believe in the same God.

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
AND WHO MADE U GOD TO DECIDE THIS..??????? THIS IS WHAT THE PROBLEM YOUR COMMUNITY IS HAVING..FOR A MAN OR WOMAN THAT HAS MOST LIKELY NEVER GONE IN A MOSQUE NOR HAD A MUSLIM OVER FOR DINNER...I THINK U HARDLY HAVE ROOM TO TEACH WHAT ISLAM IS....MAY GOD FORGIVE U FOR THIS EVIL MIND..NOTE BIGBEN ..COULDNT ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTION..WHAT DO COPTIC CHRISTIANS CALL ,GOD> MAYBE BIG BEN WOULD LIKE TO CLAIM HE OR SHE KNOWS, WHAT IS IN THE HEARTS AND SOULS OF COPTIC CHRISTIANS ALSO..FOR COPTICS BIBLE IS IN ARABIC AND THEY CALL GOD..ALLAH..
GEEEZ SO SAD TO SEE ADULTS BEHAVING LIKE THIS ,I NEED NOT ASK MYSELF WHATS GOING ON IN OWATONNA..I NEED TO THANK GOD I RAISED MY CHILDREN TO KNOW..GOD..

By: BigBen7 on 11/24/09
nobody made me god. read the Bible, those are God's words, not mine. By taking the name of Christ (CHRISTian), you are identifying with Christ as presented in the Bible. i don't know what is in anyone's heart and i never have claimed to know. that is between that person and God Himself. however, i have read the Bible and know what God says about who He is, who Jesus is, and who the Holy Spirit is. i know enough (because i study things) about islam to know that they don't believe what the Bible says about God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus.

bornintheusa--you say i didn't answer a simple question; you still have never addressed my question as to how two beliefs that have decidedly different doctrinal teachings about Jesus, the Holy Spirit,and God can be the same?

What language people speak determines the word they use for God. I'm not so much of an idiot that I don't know that. Guess what? People in Germany don't call God God either, they call Him Gott; in Spanish it is Dios. So, i wasn't taken by surprise that in Egypt they say Allah. It doesn't take away from the fact that your position on Jesus Christ makes you a Christian or not.

also, bornintheusa, would you mind telling me what church you attend (denomination).

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
IM A ROUGE LUTHERAN,,I AM THE MOTHER OF A PROUD CHRISTIAN MISSIONARY SON AND THE WIFE OF A PROUD EGYPTIAN MUSLIM..SO I DO NOT TALK ABOUT ISLAM BLINDLY AS U DO..IM SAD THAT I C SO MANY ASSUMING WHAT ISLAM IS..BASED ON NEWS REPORTS.I THINK U NEED TO WORRY ABOUT TEACHING CHILDREN WHAT GOD SENT JESUS TO EARTH FOR..NO CHRISTIAN SOUL IS BETTER THEN ANY OTHER SOUL..EVEN AMUSLIM..I HAVE CAME TO LOVE AND HONOR SOME ISLAMIC VIEWS..WITH ALL THE RAPE AND CRIMES IN OUR OWN COMMUNITIES MAYBE WE ALL SHOULD EMBRACE ISLAM..

By: bornintheusa on 11/24/09
BIG BEN..I CAN ONLY ASSUME U ENJOYED ADAM LAMBERTS PERFORMANCE THIS WEEK AND ALSO SUPPORT THE ELCA STAND ON HOMOSEXUALITY..I PERSONALLY DO NOT AGREE WITH IT..I AM JUST AN AMERICAN CHRISTIAN WITH STRONG VIEWS ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OUR SCHOOLS AND IN THE USA WITH GOD..I WOULD LOVE TO GO TO A CHRISTMAS PROGRAM IN OUR SCHOOLS..NOT A WINTER PROGRAM AS I TOLD THEY R CALLED IN OWATONNA..I WOULD LOVE TO SEE AMERICAN CHILDREN ABLE TO PRAY AROUND A FLAG POLE

By: quinn on 11/24/09
BORNINTHEUSA: please, for pity's sake, lose the caps. I respect the basic point that you seem to be making. Alot of religions are similar. Some of us posting here, and not being so religious in our beliefs, are far more tolerant than some of the more deity oriented posters.

By: bornintheusa on 11/25/09
QUINN..MAYBE SOME USE CAPS CUZ THEY HAVE DISABILTIES..OR MAYBE THEY R POOR TYPIST..BUT THANKS FOR YOUR RESPECTFUIL WAYS

By: BigBen7 on 11/25/09
born--i get my info not from the news, but my own personal study. before you assume something about someone, you should ask questions or know your facts. i do very much worry about teaching my children about why Christ came to this earth. that is my job, not the public school systems.

i do agree that Christ came even for the muslim, but they have to come to Him on His terms, not theirs. they need to accept that He is God, not just a prophet. in the Bible, Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by Me (Jesus)." The Bible also says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) should not perish but have eternal life." So, Jesus did come for the muslim, if they accept the power and work of Christ rather than dismiss His deity.

As to what Islam thinks of Christians, this is straight out of the Koran in the book of Sura.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

It seems that you have given up on logical debate since you have resorted to personal attacks. Unfortunately for you, I am going to assume you are a fan of Adam Lambert since you know who he is. I have never heard of the guy. Since you know him, i will assume you watch him.

By: bornintheusa on 11/25/09
BIGBEN, IM NOT INTO ENTERTAINING PEOPLE WHO BEHAVE AS U.. SO THIS IS THE END..AS I SAID B4 IM SURE U HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A MOSQUE NOR HAD A MUSLIM OVER FOR DINNER TO TAKE THE TIME TO LEARN..THIS WEEK IN THE USA WE HAD AMERICAN MUSIC AWARDS AND ADAM LAMBERT PERFORMED..HE WAS SEEN FIRST ON AMERICAN IDOL..AS I STATED B4 I FIND IT RATHER SAD THERE R SO CALLED CHRISTIANS ON THIS BLOG WHO NEVER SAID A PEEP TO THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BUT ME A CHRISTIAN MAKES A COMMENT ABOUT ISLAM AND LOOK AT THE RESPONCE ..I MADE THIS IN REFERENCE TO THE FEELINGS OF SOME STUDENTS AND EVENTS HAPPENING IN OWATONNA MINNESOTA,USING THE BIBLE FOR YOUR MISCONCEPTIONS OF ISLAM I FIND DISGUSTING..IF U WOULD TAKE THE TIME TO GO TO THE MOSQUE IN OWATONNA AND ASK WHO THEY BELIEVE GOD IS ..U MAY FIND YOUR SELF VERY EMBARASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSED,ASK A MUSLIM WHO MOSES IS>? ASK A MUSLIM WHO JESUS IS..U WILL FIND ALL THE SAME AS CHRISTIANS BELIEVE..YOUR ATTITUDE IS WHY YOUR COMMUNITY IS SUFFERING NOW..MAYBE U COULD VOICE GODS WORD ONTO STUDENTS AND FAMILY MEMBERS..INSTEAD OF YOUR BIAS OPINIONS ABOUT A RELIGION U OBVIOUS HAVE LEARNED ABOUT FROM WEB SITES THAT R NOT ISLAM SITES..DO U GO TO A AUTO MECHANIC TO LEARN ABOUT BAKING..DO U GO TO A CATHOLIC TO LEARN LUTHERANS? SHAME ON U BIG BEN AND MAY GOD HELP YOU..SO THAT MAYBE THE STUDENTS OF OWATONNA CAN LEARN WHAT GOD INTENDED.
GODS LAW WAS GIVEN TO MOSES ON A LITTLE MOUNT IN EGYPT AND IT IS LEARNED BY ALL OF CHRISTIAINTY AND ISLAM ..WE CHRISTIANS CALL IT THE 10 COMANDMENTS....I SEE YOUR INSECURITES ABOUT YOUR OWN FAITH SHOWING BY HOW U ARE REACTING..
CHILDREN LEARN FROM HOW THEIR PARENTS AND ADULTS AROUND THEM BEHAVE..
AND IM SO HAPPY U HAVE NEVER PERSONALY ATTACKED ISLAM NOR ME...AN AMERICAN CHRISTIAN...

By: BigBen7 on 11/25/09
how have i behaved in a manner that seems to upset you so much? i have given proof from the Bible and the Koran that shows that islam and christianity are not the same. i have used a verse from the Koran to show that in fact, muslims are not to associate with Christians or Jews. i have not personally attacked you.

i don't discount that muslims might believe in moses, jesus, and other biblical characters, but based on my study of islam, i know they do not believe Jesus is God as Christianity teaches. for me, that is the key to being a Christian.

if i am so wrong, i would appreciate you giving me direct quotes from the Koran that disprove the differences listed in my post from yesterday that has never been answered.

using evidence, other than your opinion, show me i am wrong.

i have no insecurities about my faith. i am very strong in my faith and know beyond a shadow of a doubt where i stand and what i believe. i have not learned from websites only, but from multiple books by a variety of authors; some who i agree with and others i don't.

if you have been on this site more than just recently, you will find that i have consistently shared what i believe with those who do not believe.

By: bornintheusa on 11/25/09
P.S..NOTE WHAT BIG BEN COPIES AN PASTE ABOUT ISLAM....As to what Islam thinks of Christians, this is straight out of the Koran in the book of Sura.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
NOW SINCE BIG BEN PROFESSES TO QUALIFY TO TEACH WHAT ISLAM IS..CAN BIG BEN SHARE WITH US , HOW KORAN STATES A MUSLIM CAN MARRY A CHRISTIAN OR EVEN A JEW..ISNT IT AMAZING HOW SOME PICK AND LIKE TO CHOOSE TO THEIR OWN EVIL WAYS...

By: BigBen7 on 11/25/09
born--let me ask this, what do you take this verse to mean?

i have never claimed to be qualified to teach about islam, only discuss what i have learned about it during my studies.

also, please address the vast differences listed from yesterday that you are either ignoring or deciding to dismiss as obvious differences,

By: bornintheusa on 11/25/09
BIG BEN..AS I SAID B4..IM NOT INTO ENTERTAINING PEOPLE AS U ARE..I DO NOT USE A BIBLE OR KORAN FOR HATE..I REFUSE TOO..I DO KNOW THE KORAN DOESNT PROMOTE HATE OR KILLING..I DO KNOW THE KORANS ALLOWS MUSLIM MEN TO MARRY CHRISTIAN AND EVEN JEW WOMAN SO YOUR POST ARE ALL PICK AND CHOOSE TO TRY TO CREATE MISCONSPETIONS FOR OTHERS OF ISLAM..WHICCH IS VERY WRONG IN GODS EYES..
I WILL NOT TOLERATE SOME MAN OR WOMAN CLAIMING TO KNOW ABOUT ISLAM WHEN THEY OBVIOUSLY R TRYING TO LIE ABOUT ISLAM, OR JUST VERY IGNORANT TO THE RELIGON OF ISLAM..AGAIN I ASK OF U BIG BEN TO STOP SPEADING LIES ABOUT ISLAM AND TAKE 5 MINUTES OF YOUR LIFE AND GO TO THE MOSQUE IN OWATONNA ANDS MEET WITH WHAT IS CALLED A IMMAN....DIRECT ALL YOUR QUESTIONS TO THE IMMAN..BUT SOMETHING TELLS ME U WOULDNT BELIEVE EVEN THE IMANN...LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
IN THE MEAN TIME I WILL PRAY FOR YOUR SOUL AS U ARE SINNING
THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD AND THAT HAPPENS TO B SAME GOD IN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM..

By: MomB on 12/1/09
SOMEONE, PLEASE CLARIFY--Is there part of either the public school property or, part of the public school day where prayer is being observered?